Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

Time for a rant now about GEWA and any other makers of soundpost setters who sell them with rough edges. Are they going to be used to remove stones from horses hooves?How much would it cost to put some plastic on them? Are we so short of money we have to skimp on that? Get your act together GEWA.

[ollieken]

Amezcua
I put shrink tubing on mine it is very thin you can get it at an auto parts store slip it on and heat it a little & it will shrnk tight . Ken
They put extra metal on for the blunt end & cant afford to put a shield on.

[Dave Chandler]

Amezcua:
Some great suggestions, thanks.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[John Cadd]

As a follow-up to the bit about fitting cardboard across the inside of the belly to make a guide for the post.I thought of that just before I wrote it. Today I did just that and it went in first go and the post never dropped once. A real time saver. The central post length to match the internal size was checked.I had drawn a circle and cross lines to carefully correspond with markings on the belly internal surface before it was glued together.The post is within a gnat`s whisker of the cross lines and it sounds magnificent.I tried a position too close to the bridge first and it was harsh and had the tone but it was ruined by a bad position for this model.This time it was back 4 mms from the bridge and closer to the internal foot edge.I shall keep it there and guard that spot like the Crown Jewels.
The angle of the ends was checked by pressing a six inch ruler onto the belly top.I cheated by simply turning the post over for the back angle. My trusty diamond nail file was ideal to finish the ends .There is a site describing a very careful shaping of the ends but it seems to only account for one plane of tilt.(ie side to side,not end to end) .It`s worth a read though.The basic ideas are good.
The ultra careful attitude is to be applauded.

[ollieken]

I sharpensd the setter Also made one with piano string works ok . Do you have a Gage to check for sound post lenth inside the body ? I have a fiddle that i shortened the post a little & after many times i got the top back down to match at the F too long a sound post over time had raised the wing its
a wonder it did not have a sound post crack . I use My light & a mirrior to look at the post fit works for me . You must know by now that you cant take a sow`s ear & make a silk purse with it same goes with some fiddle-Violins I think that all posters on this forum will tell you that but some can be helped sometimes Ken

[Mat Roop]

Hi folks... been away from the forum for some time ... back again and here are my thoughts on bridge placement...
1- Some time ago I had contacted Thomastik-Infeld directly about string length ... and they advised that all their standard strings are designed with a 325mm mensur ( vibrating length). IE... performance is best at that length.
2- Michael Darnton had posted some time ago ( can't find the post) about bridge placement. As best I can remember he said that there are 3 principles that can be followed for bridge placement ... A- use the neck stop/bodystop ratio of 2/3 (130/195mm) which is the accepted standard or B- place the bridge to center on the inner nicks which follows the makers design and C- place the bridge to match the design of the string length(325mm).
Ideally, a perfect violin should get all 3 principles to match, but rarely is that reality... and therefore you need to fudge various setup issues to get as close as possible to all of A, B and C or one of them at your discretion.
3-We all know that any change in bridge placement or carving will make a difference... but as Ken says... you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. HOWEVER... one oft overlooked issue is that the bridge must be centered on the violin body, and width of the bridge must match the location of the bass bar and it then follows that the post must be placed equally opposite the bar. The problem is that often, bars are not installed very accurately, and most bridges are standard width and often that means that the bridge foot is either short of or slightly overhangs the bar and then the sound post cannot be placed equidistant from the bar if it is properly aligned behingd the bridge foot.... and so as they say, all hell breaks loose!
My two cents worth!... Cheers, Mat

[John Cadd]

There was a question about measuring the sound post length.Yes I have one I made from thin brass tubes.I added an external part to indicate the post position .One important point is to be careful not to fit the post too tight.The type of fit is close to the drag you feel with feeler gauges.If you just pass that stage and avoid making a creaking sound you are pretty near exact.
I thought of suggesting a practice piece .Make up a small box with suitable curves.This would give you the feel of moving the post and feeling the type of gentle pressure needed.
Then mark the spot .Take the post out and adjust the length a tiny amount to learn how that will affect it`s position.That will be practice in measuring the post length as well.Get used to shaping the angles at each end of the post.
Have a suitable soundhole built into one surface.The curved hole will help to throw the eye out .Nothing lines up visually in this job so you may as well get used to it.Otherwise it would be cheating.See what I mean by this?
I doubt if dramatic changes in humidity happen in places like Chicago compared with California.
Is humidity the main cause of lifting wings or is bad adjustment the culprit?
Why do I keep hearing about sow`s ears? There is a long way to making a Strad but starting with a basically negative attitude will get us nowhere.A sow`s ear will be one made for decoration .Just for hanging on the wall.The well established ways to make a violin will not let you down if you pay attention and concentrate.

[John Cadd]

How do you feel about a smudge of rosin on the post ends?I saw chalk suggested.Given the instrument you have in your hands this post job must be the most important of all.

[Dave Chandler]

Amezcua:
You might enjoy this little article from maestronet on the stop and string length, that answers some of my concerns about maintaining playability by conforming to traditional lengths despite the "f" hole notches.

http://maestronet.com/m_library/violin_violinist/19431210.pdf
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[John Cadd]

Dave Thankyou so much for that article. (written the same year I was born). It is information that has been hiding in the shadows.
The difficulty that players would have in adapting to changing proportions is very parrallel to something I was trying recently on a guitar. I have been using small plastic self adhesive door buffers along the back of the guitar neck.The first is behind the thumb to make 5th fret accurate.(and reachable) with 4th finger.The other two give my hand accurate position for 5th position (with 1st finger )and 7th position.(with 1st finger) .With that I can reach all the notes I need.
The violinist would need one near the neck join (near the body)to set his position correctly in a wayward design.
I have short fingers and have been using ( on a violin) one of these plastic "blobs" to set the fourth finger accurately in first position.It makes a full size instrument much easier to play now.
The "blob is placed just up from the scroll end of the neck curve .(over 1/2 inch gap.) The placement is next to the thumb pad and not the joint which gives a margin of flexibility.
Thanks again.

[John Cadd]

There seems to be some room to choose the best position for the bridge.(within tight limits) Is there a popular method to determine the best post position from the sound quality aspect while suspending the strict exact measurement aspect.
A good or reasonable sound may be acceptable at first but it is unlikely to be the best result possible. If there is a range of positions left to right and also along the main axis then a tidy methodical system to work out the ideal sound would be preferable.
Because of the double curvature a post will not fit properly if it is moved straight across left or right.It will not fit properly if moved straight up or down either.The best would be a diagonal shuffle.(no string pressure when adjusting).Other than that you will need a couple of posts to choose from.
Start (?) with the longest possible position (near bridge and also nearer centre of belly) and gradually shorten as the Post position moves away from bridge and closer to the treble side of bridge foot. (all the while matching the angle of the ends.)
Big questions now. What are the limits of sound post positions?
Do any makers try moving the bridge slightly with each post position? I find this gives a quick change in tone without disturbing the post. Each post position could give a range of bridge positions.( this is in mms only).
Is there sometimes a position for the post where the sound is excellent but the physical position is causing distrortion to the belly (or wings)? This is the ultimate "cat`s whisker".

[Dave Chandler]

Don't overthink this -- There are so many variabilities in each violin that there is no way to predict the correct post position. So start with what is normally acceptable, as this is the most likely position to produce the optimum sound. You have to start somewhere, and yes, if you have to move it toward the center, you may have to cut a longer post. That just comes with the territory. I doubt you should need to move more than 2mm in any direction from this optimum position. Longitudinaly you should not need to correct the post length, and perhaps a mm or so toward the center might work without cutting a new post as well, depends on the slope. Cross that bridge when you get to it. Also better to cut the bridge to the correct length than to have one too loose or tight, as this also affects sound. I have dozens of posts that had to be replaced, and I usually pick from these before starting out cutting fresh. Also, give it time to play in before moving to another position. Maybe a couple hours of playing.

I have to admit to moving the bridge forward or back a mm or so to check if there is improvement and then move the post appropriately but then I can put the bridge back where it belongs. Moving the bridge left or right changes a lot of different things, consider the position over the bass bar too, so that is not a good way to diagnose post position.

Post position can change dramatically just moving the bottom of the post a little too, you don't necessarily have to move the entire post.

Finally, I'm still what I consider a novice, so those out there that have more set-up time under their belt are certainly welcome to weigh in.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[John Cadd]

Thankyou for that Dave Just to emphasise what you say about the bridge .The bridge must always be in a central position.No left or right for that.I recall my teacher doing a slight shift of the bridge feet once but he was asoloist with a Gagliano.
One thing you never see these days is a maker or repairer holding a violin between his legs.This is a very secure position for bridge straightening.Scroll downwards Part of the "image" I have of the way a violin should be handled.Or am I being silly? This is being missed by the media men.
How do you feel about the grain of the post?Any tips about the dark tone so popular with some players?
Just to check again .Do you ever move a post without slackening the strings first? I think it would risk the bridge dropping next time the strings were let down.
Best to get things like that out in the open .It may save a newbie from an unhappy experience.

[Dave Chandler]

I would never move the post with strings tight, slack only.

Don't move the bridge off center unless there's a really compelling reason, as it moves the bridge off the bass bar as well. Slack strings if moving bridge left or right.

Clamping the violin between knees might cause the sound post to fall out.

I adjust the bridge (we're talking about keeping it upright, square to the top), by bracing the violin in my lap against my stomach, and with the meaty part of my hands firm on the top on either side of the bridge, move the tip of the bridge with my fingers only, so that you can't accidentally go too far too fast.

When stringing up, tighten all strings about 50% then straighten the bridge, then go another 25% or so and straighten again, keep this going till both correct intonation and right angle to the top is achieved. Nothing as dramatic as a bridge popping over, it can mar the top, and the fine tuners come crashing down into the soft spruce as well. When slacking the strings, it probably won't fall over, but keep an eye on it anyway.

Darker sound? Wait and see what you get in the correct position, then go from there if you really need. Usually moving the sound post rearward will darken the tone, moving it left affects volume (or is it vice versa??). Anyway, small adjustments, with strings slack, and play it in before moving again.

I cut my posts from waste material from cutting out the top, so its grain and quality are the same, but the grain of the post is set at right angle to the grain of the top. I've not tried different thicknesses of post to see what happens there.

If you're not happy with the sound, make sure the bridge feet are flush to the top, the bridge is upright, centered, and the post ends are flush to the wood, then you might look at the cut of the bridge, and finally check the post placement.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[John Cadd]

Dave I am glad you mentioned the cut of the bridge.The sites that go into details of the many measurements are extremely useful.
Do you just mean the shape of the top or an adjustment of all the "structural parts? That detailed examination of the thicknesses really pays off.The natural way to think of a bridge is ;how big are the holes.The important thing is how thick are the bits in between the holes.--The structural parts.
At present the Guarnieri model is making far better tone further up from the right hand f-hole.( Changed my spelling of his name there).
The G string is much more incisive and still not nasal.
Who plays the original Guarnieri that Heron -Allen copied.I`d love to hear it played?

Guarneri Del Gessayoo.(have you heard that awful pronunciation in the Cannon u tube film?)