Violin Forum/Message Board

[johngia]

Hello all. Are there any differences in constructing a standard size violin to be use exclusively with Octave strings (pitched one octave below normal). Plate thickness? Bass bar? Etc? Thanks.

[Dave Chandler]

Curious question. Have you tried the strings on a conventional violin and does it give you what you're looking for?

Sounds like you're going for a viola sound. I know if you just tune violin strings down an octave, everything gets kinda flabby. I'd like to hear more, this is new to me.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[L P Reedy]

I have not heard of anyone building a fiddle especially for octave strings, so I don't know whether anything should be different. I would guess that you would NOT want the plates to be thicker and the tension should be about the same as standard strings so stength factors should be about the same. The main difference, of course, is that the grooves in nut and bridge have to be widened and some of the peg string holes MAY have to be enlarged.

Dave, the sound is supposed to be closer to cello than viola, although I have not actually heard or played one.

[rs]

The answer I am suggesting is intuitive, not from ever having done it. It is the result of observations of violin construction as it is.

Lower notes need much more plate surface area to be adequately heard than higher notes. The octave change you are seeking really only affects the lower two strings, that is, the G and D. The E and the A you are seeking is only one step above the D and the G now being used on standard violins. Therefore, you should not have many problems from those two strings.

On smaller instruments, for example, 1/2 size fiddles or 14 inch violas, the rendition quality of the high notes is usually fairly close to full-size counterparts. The problems occur in the lower notes as they have much less depth of tone. The dark, sensual tone that is looked for just isn't there on the lower strings of small instruments. The plates just run out of room as the "sound" works from bridge to ribs and back, etc.

But, some changes of construction can simulate this.

Assuming the string tension is the same as the tension on standard fiddles, intuitively I would look to try this: First, maximize your plates, that is, fully graduate them to the ribs/lining. (If a maker is having problems with depth of tone on the lower end of a standard fiddle, often it is because he is stopping his graduation just short of the ribs. By simply taking it further and maximizing his plates, that is, not stopping his graduation until he reaches the lining, he may be surprised how much richer the tone can become.)

Second, make the plates a little thicker. This will give more mass to the wood and naturally induce a bass bias. I would try about 1 mm more on the back, and about .5mm on the top. That number is speculative, but in the end, I would be surprised if it wasn't fairly close to that difference.

Third, redistribute the graduation. If the above is simply done, the new E and A will likely sound too masculine in contrast to the lower G and D. Therefore, I would expect to thin the center of the back just a little to balance this discrepancy. Again, this is speculative, but is consistant with structural remedies in standard violins.

Fourth, reshape the bass bar. Standard bars at the center are just under 1/2 inch and quickly drop off as they work towards the ends of the corpse. I would dry making this curve not very pronounced. This way as the "sound" runs out to the ribs, the bar will still be fairly heavy towards the ends and will help slow it down. This will induce a more bass bias and help compensate for the lack of depth of tone the violin sized plates possess. Again, this is speculative, but is consistant with remedial work of violin construction problems.

Finally, while strung up, I would make my adjustments to the back to tune them to the top.

Best wishes and I hope this helps.
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Randall Shenefelt

[johngia]

Dave, I have not tried the strings on a standard violin. I haven't even purchased any yet. Trying to decide between "Supersensitive Sensicore-Octave" (perlon, $50) or "Thomastik Octave" (steel, $100). I intend to put these on the latest violin (Number 9) that I am currently building.

L P, Further research found a company/website that specializes in "Baritone Fiddles" (obvious website). They are built and set up as you say --- larger volume and very light.

RS, That is valuable information on how to affect the sound of a violin. Up until now, I've just sort of made them by feel, and what they come out sounding as, is what they come out sounding as.

I just glued up the body a couple of days ago. It is lighter than I normally build, plus unusual material --- walnut/poplar/walnut back and mahogany sides. Laminate mahogany/maple/mahogany neck. Just for the "fun" of it, I've built my last several violins from scrap wood laying around my shop. My other hobby is multitrac recording, and I thought a nice addition to the sound would be an octave violin. I really would like a cello --- bought a book on building one --- would take me years to do. That's a lot of wood, and to make all the fixtures etc.... Someday I'd like to buy a ready made one.

If this violin doesn't have the bassey celloey sound I'm looking for, I may try another one incorporating the input I've received.

Thanks to all.

John