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Geemac
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008
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Location: Spruce Grove
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 Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Bill, I see you are in Edmonton. I am not too far away in Spruce Grove.
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byacey
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not really in Edmonton. In the international community, most people say "Where the hell is Edmonton?"
It's easier to explain that than conveying that I live a few miles north of St. Albert, which happens to be a suburb of Edmonton. Cross country, were not that far apart, probably 15 miles.
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violinarius
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Joined: 14 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | violinarius wrote: |
Either people have not tried the right theory, or perhaps it is the skill of Stradivari that they have not been able to duplicate, or have over-looked.
If wood treatment was the key, then why would we not see the same price for all the other Cremonese makers?
Amati trained quite a few makers, and I think it is safe to 'assume' that they had access to the same wood pile, so if the secret is in the wood, then they should all be on the same level, but they are not.
If all these makers received the same training under Amati, then why are they all different? How do you teach talent? |
One thing that's always been interesting to me, though, is how the bad makers of the Amati camp could make as good of violins as they could. You seem to think that if they all had the "secret" they'd all be as good as Stradivari, automatically. I think they all shared something we call "secret" that put them ahead of everyone else, but they didn't all have the other skills required to make the best possible violin. |
People being what they are, I think they maybe had several 'secrets' but the 'secrets' are not what made them successful, it was their judgment and the in depth thinking combined with years of experience, topped with some talent and skill. Just like having a lucky rabbits foot might help you be successful, but it had nothing to do with the rabbit.
If the 'secret' wood treatment was key to making, then we would see it used in every instrument, and makers from a common wood stockpile would all be a lot closer grouped. Dr. Nagyvary has proven that the wood is not treated the same in every case so we should see more of a scatter pattern than we do.
It would seem possible to me that how you handle any given piece of wood is far more important than what the wood is.
i.e. Some people go for only low density wood because of a math formulas that says it's the best, yet Stradivari's wood has been tested and we see all sorts of different densities.
Or the 'secret' is a mineral coating, yet half the violins don't have a coat at all.
This leads me to think that what is at work is a discriminating intelligence and not a rigid regimented formula of thought. Yet modern makers today would use only low density wood with a special mineral coat, along with the same arch and model, followed by their own proprietary 'secret' wood treatment every time.
So for me the most interesting question is why would you not use this 'secret' advantage every time? That is if it truly is an advantage ... every time.
Look at school class, where the same thing is taught to everyone at the same time, yet some race ahead, others are left behind. My bet is that Stradivari, or Amati would have been the ones getting the top marks. |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So for me the most interesting question is why would you not use this 'secret' advantage every time? That is if it truly is an advantage ... every time. |
What evidence do you have that it was not used every time by the great makers? In order to know that, you would need to know what the "secret" was, which I don't think you have demonstrated yet. |
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violinarius
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Posts: 171
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | Quote: | | So for me the most interesting question is why would you not use this 'secret' advantage every time? That is if it truly is an advantage ... every time. |
What evidence do you have that it was not used every time by the great makers? In order to know that, you would need to know what the "secret" was, which I don't think you have demonstrated yet. |
If it is something I don't know about, then yes you are right, but I was referring to what others consider the 'secret' to be, an you see in the Newspapers, such as wood treatment, which is not always used, the lowest density wood, which is not the case, and mineral coats, which are present on about half of the violins tested so far.
So if there is a 'secret' such as one of the above, it would seem to have helped Stradivari and Amati more than it did the others makers. |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Since those things appear to appear randomly, I suspect they aren't the unifying "secret". So that still leaves a lot of other things... |
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violinarius
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Posts: 171
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | Since those things appear to appear randomly, I suspect they aren't the unifying "secret". So that still leaves a lot of other things... |
And if there is a unifying 'secret' then Amati and his students should all be about the same give or take, unification being what unification is. |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, and in general they've done quite well in the market over the last couple of hundred years. I mentioned Rugeri, who I think did amazingly well with some very strange archings that I certainly couldn't make work at all, and Andrea Guarneri, who many people think was a downright rotten maker, with, nevertheless, some wonderful sounding violins. There does seem to be a component to their work that lifts them above the usual slug, in spite of the problems with their structural concepts of form and graduation. I guess that leaves some other "secret". To expect their violins to act the exactly same in spite of radically different archings and models is, I think, asking entirely too much of any "secret". It certainly doesn't work that way for modern makers, who aren't leveled by their lack of "secret". |
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violinarius
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Posts: 171
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | Yes, and in general they've done quite well in the market over the last couple of hundred years. I mentioned Rugeri, who I think did amazingly well with some very strange archings that I certainly couldn't make work at all, and Andrea Guarneri, who many people think was a downright rotten maker, with, nevertheless, some wonderful sounding violins. There does seem to be a component to their work that lifts them above the usual slug, in spite of the problems with their structural concepts of form and graduation. I guess that leaves some other "secret". To expect their violins to act the exactly same in spite of radically different archings and models is, I think, asking entirely too much of any "secret". It certainly doesn't work that way for modern makers, who aren't leveled by their lack of "secret". |
Which brings us back to talent and skill. So IF they all had access to the same materials and training, it would appear that some were better able to take advantage of the opportunity than others.
Oh I'm sure they had their 'secrets' it's just that when some of the lesser makers used the 'secret' we get lesser results, so we end up with talent and skill leading the way.
Any maker developing their talent or skill level will be rewarded for so doing.
So perhaps Stradivari strung-up a violin in the white, and listened to it, and then decided if it needed a mineral coat or not, while the lesser makers just skipped this process, or automatically always followed a certain way.
The point I'm trying to make is that perhaps your brain is the real 'secret' and how you see things and then how well you execute them. Of course this isn't too sexy, so it will not win any Nobel Prizes.
So new makers pursuing 'secrets' hoping that there is a pot-o-gold at the end of the rainbow just may be disappointed. Pursue them just don't forget to pursue other things, more important, as well.
That Stradivari was able to make with low and high density wood, using sometimes a mineral coat, and sometimes not, while one piece of wood soaked in the lagoon behind Venice, another fresh, is a testament to his talent and skill, and perhaps evidence that he was not all that wrapped-up in pursuing a pot-o-gold as others around him may have been.
Time is a finite resource and probably the biggest limiting factor in development. Wasting it can never be undone, so spend it wisely. |
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Janito
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Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 114
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to play like Mr Perlman, but my brain is holding me back.
Life is full if inequalities. |
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Michael Darnton
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 1347
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I just watched "Being John Malkovich" last night for the second time. If you haven't seen it, you should. |
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Geemac
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 93
Location: Spruce Grove
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think there were many, if any, secrets. Materials such as salt, borax and magnesium sulfate were added to protect the instruments from insects doing the wood harm. The side effect of the addition of the above mentioned ingredients was a nice sound . . . . . . sometimes. Certainly a talented maker followed by a talented musician were the prime ingredients.
Nevertheless, I put this thread forward so that you may try it once on some [not so expensive] lumber and let us know what the results were. I have made two violins this way and one has a sound that those in the know find very nice and one is a real turkey. Instead of knowledgable chatting, give it a try and see what you think.
PS - Stradivari did string-up a violin in the white and his verdict was that his violins always sounded better before the finish wa applied.
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violinarius
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| Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Interestingly it has been pointed out to me that while not all violins may have a mineral ground coat, low density, or treated wood, it is possible that there is not one violin that does not at least exhibit one of these treatments.
So we could have a rotating 'secret' so to speak.
Also it was pointed out to me that some instruments may have a single mineral ground coat, while others may have an double or triple coat.
All indicative of thought regarding the use or not use of, and also to what degree is best.
So it would seem that the games afoot. |
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byacey
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps the ground was applied "to taste" on a strung instrument. If the violin lacked brilliance, they slapped on another coat until it was good enough for the market.
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Geemac
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