Violin Forum/Message Board

Thomas Southern · Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: Hide Glue

Hello Everyone,

I just started doing repairs on violins. I have been having problems working with my glue. I prepared the glue by using a 50/50 mix of water and graduals. I allowed tem to absorb the water two hours for the first batch and overnight for others. Using a double boiler I heated the mixture to 145 degrees F / 63 C the glue will only stay fluid for 30 seconds. I tried thinning it out still 30 seconds. Kept thinning it..... 30 seconds. Moved my work to a room heated to 85F/29C allowed the parts to warm for a few hours, still 30 seconds. Had to glue the back of a 1/4 violin cello style reactivating the glue whit a hot knife apply a clamp and repeate. I read some stuff on this board that suggested to heat the glue to 165F/70C, still just 30 seconds. I understand that I should be getting longer open times (but how long?) I am starting to think that I have high strength glue hence the short working time. What do you recommend? A new technique or new glue?

Thanks

Tom

Jack H. · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:28 am Post subject:

hard to tell from all the way over here what is going on, but hot hyde glue gels quite quickly. Clamp the back of the cello in place with out the glue and work on sections. Do the blocks first one at a time, clamp each after gluing. then do the bouts.

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

30 seconds is about right...

For cello's here's what I do. Clamp the plate to the ribs without any glue.

Then get a plastic syringe and suck enough glue into it to do the job.

Rest the syringe on the edge of a bowl of very hot water, to keep it fluid.

Take off 3 or 4 clamps at a time; pressing the plate away from the ribset slightly. "Squirt" a glue line along the edge of the seam... using thin and prewarmed feeler guage push the glue under the seam so the contact patch is properly glued up.

Replace the clamps in this section and keep going.

When the glue job is done, I run a chisel or other straight edge along the rib/plate interface and scrape off the now gelled but not yet dry excess glue.

That's better than using hot water to get it off, because the hot water will allow glue residue to soak into the wood, which will show up later when varnishing as a color difference.

I found this to be far less stressful a method than trying to beat the gell time by doing it all at once.

Jack H. · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:45 am Post subject:

Please DO NOT use a chisel to scrape the gelled glue, you are just doing damage and making more work for yourself.
use a soft brush and hot water and then a dry rag or paper towel.
if you MUST scrape then get a piece of spruce and clean it out with that after you sharpen it a bit but not too much. it IS possible to use just hot water to remove ALL the glue.

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

Jack:

You're advice is emphatic and well intentioned, I'm sure, but you'll find no less an expert than Sacconi detailing this method, specifically warning not to use warm water for cleanup because the glue resoftened soaks into the wood and makes varnishing more difficult.

I'm not suggesting that one actively "scrape"... no, it's just an easy supericial glide over the ribs... the gelled glue lifts off very easily, as though it had no adherent tendency at all.

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

In case anyone is interested, Sacconi details this point at page 103 (english translation) of his book "The Secrets of Stradivari"...

"He (Stradivari) glued the belly with the same procedure as he had glued the back.... as a last operation at this point he chipped off the possible surplus glue which came out on the borders or on the ribs. This he did with a CHISEL along the upper and lower curves and with a gouge at the centre bouts. Stradivari never used warm water because traces of redissolved glue would have been spread lightly over all the ribs and on the borders, jeopardizing, by closing the pores of the wood, the subsequent process of varnishing."

Lots of different ways to the promised land...

Jack H. · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject:

IIRC Sacconi also recommends using Alum as a sealer for the wood stating that The Master did so also.
There is a lot of good information in Sacconi's book, but he was not there.

Also, there are quite a few amateur makers in this forum and telling them to scrape with a chisel on white wood might not be the best advice with out going into more depth.

The original poster, Tom, was also talking about doing repairs and talking about a problem he was having while doing repairs, not closing a violin in the white. I automatically heard the sound of a chisel scraping on varnish just to get some silly dollop of glue off....
I would NOT recommend going at the glue with a chisel during the closing of a varnished instrument.
Keep the tools sharp!
Jack

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

LOL... yes, a chisel on a varnished instrument might be trouble...

WNitkin · Junior Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 15

You might try a different brand. I have had longer gell times with Milligan and Higgins XFS 192 gram glue. I mix 2 to 1 water to granules with ice cold water and let the jar sit on ice till the granules have swelled. Sometime I sprinkle on more ice cold water to keep the top granules from drying out. I give it about 1/2 hour for the granules swell to about twice their original mass. Be sure to allow the jar to come to room temp before heating it or it will break. Glue is nice and clear.

WNitkin · Junior Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 15

You might try a different brand. I have had longer gell times with Milligan and Higgins XFS 192 gram glue. I mix 2 to 1 water to granules with ice cold water and let the jar sit on ice till the granules have swelled. Sometime I sprinkle on more ice cold water to keep the top granules from drying out. I give it about 1/2 hour for the granules swell to about twice their original mass. Be sure to allow the jar to come to room temp before heating it or it will break. Glue is nice and clear.

WNitkin · Junior Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 15

You might try a different brand. I have had longer gell times with Milligan and Higgins XFS 192 gram glue. I mix 2 to 1 water to granules with ice cold water and let the jar sit on ice till the granules have swelled. Sometime I sprinkle on more ice cold water to keep the top granules from drying out. I give it about 1/2 hour for the granules swell to about twice their original mass. Be sure to allow the jar to come to room temp before heating it or it will break. Glue is nice and clear.

WNitkin · Junior Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 15

Sorry for the multiple post.

mikemolnar · Member Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 57

I use the 315 glue. Get it from Luscombe.

Also, I keep it on the thick side. Keep adding JUST ENOUGH WATER to keep the glue covered. Keep adding water to cover the swelling glue.

Voila!

WNitkin · Junior Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 15

Keep in mind that the higher the gram number of the glue is the faster it gells but the higher the gram number the stronger the glue. I have used the XFS for years and it holds quite well. Some like the stronger glue. I need the time before it gells. Very Happy