Violin Forum/Message Board

Michael Darnton · Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject:

The fluting in the wings isn't a continuation of anything that's going on with the arch--on either side of an f the cross arch is discontinuous. Fluting is purely cosmetic, and you can do exactly the same arch with or without fluting--and many makers through time have done both.

The visual part that fluting plays is to continue the scoop at the narrowest spot directly downwards (south) through the length of the wings, without relating to what the rest of the arch is doing. That's one of the things that makes Strads, in particular, so attractive--that the f-holes appear to be breathing, rather than just being punched out of a continuous surface. Other Cremonese makers don't usually look as nice in this respect as do Strads, and most of the other makers also don't flute their wings like Stradivari, not in style nor to that extent.

Andres Sender · Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject:

Janito · Member Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 114 Location: USA

Thanks both - points taken.

I don't want to hog Chris' thread.

Chris Knowlton · Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject:

Hi Janito
You're not hogging anything. I'm enjoying it, just taking it all in.
_________________
I make sawdust mostly

mikemolnar · Member Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 57

Michael Darnton · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:44 am Post subject:

Everything is important to tone, but basically, no, I don't believe the SHAPE of the lower wing affects much. The THICKNESS most likely does. It's possible to achieve the thickness without the shape.

I did notice the discussion of this on Maestronet, which basically was highly opinionated with no specifics, evidence, or even scientific quotes, not even as to what was happening, if I remember correctly. As far as I know, though, wing vibrations affect high frequencies, according to some people, but it's not been demonstrated to me that this is a very important adjustment. I'm open, though. To prove that the fluting shape, not the weight or thickness, is the critical component is going to be an impossible proof, I suspect.

I suspect the opinion on Maestronet was of the same order of thoughtfulness as of people who look at the edges of f-holes and think that they say something about the rest of the thickness of the top.

CT Dolan · Member Joined: 29 Jun 2008 Posts: 143

I have often thought that wing vibrations must affect high frequencies. In fact, I cannot help but think this is the case. However, it would be quite difficult to divorce this aspect from the remainder of the design, at least for the sake of proof. It is a matter of context. A simple analogy would be one of a bubble...you push down here and it rises over there. In other words, everything affects everything else, the question is in what manner and to what degree. This must be a very difficult question to answer, however I still believe the foundation is arching, and that arching in context with the remainder (the outline, rib height, thicknesses, f-hole size, f-hole shape and f-hole placement...the f-holes play a huge role, in my opinion), defines the instrument. I am not going to comment on ground nor varnish, other than to say that it may hold more opportunity to kill the sound than help it along. However, all of the above is merely an opinion. Wink

Oded Kishony · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject:

Oliver Rodgers and Pam Anderson demonstrated the importance of the F hole wings one year at the VSA. They added a bit of weight of the F holes and the sound changed significantly. You can also look at modal analysis and see the areas around the F holes vibrate furiously.

Stiffness and mass determine vibrational characteristics and the F hole wings are not an exception. Thickness and how it's distributed is critical but, just as the arching of the plates is a determinant of stiffness, so is the curvature of the F hole wings. The more 'curled' the wings the stiffer they are longitudinally.

Oded Kishony

CT Dolan · Member Joined: 29 Jun 2008 Posts: 143

That is very interesting, the thought about how the shape (fluting) affects the stiffness of the wings. It does make sense, but it also needs to be considered in context (or, what does the violin in question want or need to arrive at the best result). To my eye the shape of Stradivari's f-holes and the fluting is the epitome of grace. On the other end we have del Gesu, whose f-holes have a rugged quality, but nonetheless an undeliable appeal. All the rest fall somewhere in between.

Janito · Member Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 114 Location: USA

I have just read the Sept 2008 Strad that has an amazing photo of Mr Kuschnir's 1698 Strad on page 40.

It exemplifies what I was trying to describe when I referred to the F hole fluting being part of the arch.

The side lighting creates a light reflection travelling down the C bout, through the middle of the lower wing of the right F hole, and then continuing across the lower hole onto the lower bout.

When one sees this kind of image, it is tempting to speculate that the fluting is not a post-hoc decoration.

mikemolnar · Member Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 57

I tend to agree. If you watch how the eyebrow flows, it is apparent that the fluting is an(other) integral part of the arch.

But that is my opinion.

Mike

Andres Sender · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject:

The truth is hidden in plain sight. Wink

Janito · Member Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 114 Location: USA

you mean it's not a Strad...blimey!