Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

While working hard to regulate the aftrlengths on two very different violins I have struck the same problem on both instruments . The open A string gives a nasty buzzing vibration .I came across the problems that high quality pianos have with duplex tuning .If the afterlength piano notes are not exactly right the tone can be spoiled. That`s where I saw the comment about buzzing vibrations . I was blaming the violin string and changed the brand but that same effect is still there . Before I ever bothered about afterlength precision measurements I never had this irritation.The D string afterlength might be generating a harmonic A note that clashes with the open A.Or the E sting fine tuner making the afterlength too short could be doing something .
Overall the G,D and E strings sound really good .But both violins have developed this nasty sound on the A strings.I might make some movable frets to change the afterlengths or add some damping to different afterlengths .Useful to have two different violins coming up with the exact same fault .
Some Fazioli pianos can cause problems in that area and only specially trained Fazioli tuners are allowed to touch them .

[John Cadd]

After many frustrating attempts to get the tailpiece puzzle sorted out I have ditched the strict 55mm afterlength theory. All efforts to get that measurement exactly right with various tailpieces ended up with awful reverberations on the open A string .Almost like a road drill with two identical A notes and not a stable single note.I kept the end of the tailpiece close to the bottom saddle without any touching.
I tried Ebony standard tailpieces .Rosewood .Pernambuco.Wittner plastic. Boxwood with a centre crease, Harp shapes in Ebony ,Palmwood. Pernambuco. Jujube.
Now I have a stable A string note with a standard Rosewood tailpiece .The gap at the tail end is about 10mm.The bridge to tailpiece afterlength is 43mm .That`s it. The bridge is in the correct position with main string length 330mm .Back edge vertical .Bridge height 34mm ..Soundpost about 2.5mm behind the bridge foot. Right foot matches the Left foot over the bassbar .
To describe the tone I would compare it with Butterscotch. You need to imagine that .But that`s subjective so nobody has to believe it . Christmas will be much better now that is sorted out .
Playing the afterlengths with a bow the G afterlength gives a high D.D afterlength gives a high A .A afterlength gives a high E .The E fine tuner is a lever type set back with the hook just behind the insert .
I worked hard for that .I still have two spare A strings left over. The good tone achieved came from a very cheap Chinese string with a steel core .No offence to Pirastro Tonicas .I kept that in case I solved the mystery .The string itself was not causing the problem .
If you play the afterlength with a bow and you choose thicker or thinner strings you might need to alter the afterlength to give the right harmonics .That gives other players a framework to get the best result without slavishly keeping to one measurement.

[John Cadd]

Well now to streamline the proces it is easier to use a shorter tailpiece to begin with. Then use longer nylon loops which are not obstructed in the cutout area beneath . My result of 43mm s is definitely a variable to play with. Once you have found the best afterlength you can decide to get a tailpiece that reaches the bottom end without compromising the tone .Even experimenting with one tailpiece needs a lot of dismantling to adjust the loop .
One practical improvement for everyone is to add 2 small pieces of ebony just in front of the D and A string inserts to get all 4 string afterlengths equal. When the superglue has set , the final length can be adjusted accurately .

[John Cadd]

Basically there is only one correct afterlength for any individual violin.Finding the right length can be long winded and frustrating .I worked out a way to shorten the job. Disconnect the G string and the E string and work it out with the D and A strings alone .The test is to tune A and D accurately and play the D string afterlength with your bow.That should match the open A string .Work out if the afterlength is sharp or flat and then take off the tailpiece to alter the tail loop.
Measure carefully how much to turn the loop screws.Keep in mind if the change is maybe a semitone and learn how much to adjust the screw .
I use a patch of leather on the belly and you can turn the strings over without disconnecting them .It`s a long tedious process but the matching notes will be there somewhere. Strings dislike being tightened and loosened .They both need to be in tune with each other before you can test the afterlength .It`s good practice for the pegs as well .
One violin afterlength came out at 43mm .The other violin 57mm.Why there is such a difference is a mystery .
But you find some good tone without touching the soundpost .That can come later .

[John Cadd]

Going back to pianos for a moment.the duplex /aliquot tuning covers vibrating portions of the strings at both ends .One at the tuning end and possibly another buried somewhere at the back . I don`t have a grand piano to peer into about that .
On a violin there is a strange confusion about whether the strings "communicate " with each other.What about the main length communicating with the afterlength which is on the other side of the bridge. There is no natural rule for the main string to magically agree with the frequency of the afterlength portion. Tuning a violin is about altering the string tension in a fixed length (nut to bridge).The afterlength tuning relies on altering the length to change the pitch of the afterlength .That is why the tail loop adjustment is so useful . Think about the time before nylon adjusters held the tailpiece in position .A thick gut with a burned end to swell it into a lump with some thin cord tied around .There was nothing precise possible there .What happened at the other end of the tailpiece? There were not so many factories churning out ready made products .A slot for a gut string with a knot could be adjusted with a saw or a file .You would have to make a taipiece yourself to think of ways to get it right .
But do strings communicate in the afterlength?They are all directly fixed to the bridge and the tailpiece .It`s all vibrating very close together .There are no rubber buffers between the Eight connections.4 on the bridge and 4 on the tailpiece. Or are the bridge connections deeply involved with each other and mysteriously the tailpiece connections completely ignore each other. That would be a very unnatural situation .If you bow a string (main section) and feel the tail loop with your fingertip you can sense the vibrations .The whole violin is vibrating .
Compare the main length vibrations with the afterlength.If the afterlength wants to vibrate in opposition to the main string and it`s frequency clashes you get a nasty conflict .You could call it a wolf note.There may be different kinds of wolf notes .But the conflict shows how much energy is transferred behind the bridge.The bow is supplying the main sound but there is plenty of energy supplied to the opposition .No need to get too technical and use German words like Eigen .Keep it simple.

[John Cadd]

I am trying to work out how to calculate the correct afterlength to match the open A string .There must (may) be other settings possible ,but for now lets keep to one target .
Start with the tailpiece shorter the 55mm .If you play the D afterlength and compare it with open A string the afterlength will sound sharp.Even though the afterlength is much higher pitched you can sense the note itself does not match the open A .Now finger the A string to get a match with the afterlength.
You can measure where your finger is placed on the A string .That gives you some proportions to calculate.Measure A string finger position to bridge. That compares with the open D string length. Using basic maths that proportion also will relate to the correct afterlength. You can work out exactly the afterlength needed .That will be the adjustment for the tail loop and it will make the job much quicker .

[John Cadd]

I used the mathematics method on my Octave violin which has guitar tuners instead of wooden pegs .(So utterly reliable and effortless) .
Testing the D string afterlength it sounded G#.So one semitone flat .Measuring the semitone on the open string gave me the figures .The setting on D afterlength was 55mm.That was too long.It had to be shorter. The simple Maths answer was a change in afterlength of 2.28 mm.I unscrewed the strings with my orange winder and altered the tail loops (extended them to make the afterlength shorter). After tuning up again. Bridge nice and straight . The D afterlength matched the open A .It worked perfectly . One measurement and back working again. So the Harp tuning via the D string setting works as well .

[John Cadd]

I simplified the calculations needed for adjusting afterlengths .
For these changes you need to bow the afterlength rather than plucking .Don`t worry about the silk windings .It is what it is .Whatever you bow makes that sound.
If you want to change the afterlength tuning like a string quartet I heard about ,it is simple and effective.They tuned the G string afterlength to C# instead of D.

I changed the last sentence.I got the strings mixed up . If you look up AI about tuning the afterlength it`s got it all back to front . It does not tell you how to calculate the length and note value either . To lengthen the afterlength you need to Shorten the tail loop .

Yesterday I thought if you reversed the tail loop and had the adjusters outside the violin down beside the end pin(with some kind of metal collar round the end pin) you could simply slacken the strings to do the alteration .Finding the exact length is the tiresome process that worries players most . I looked for the Wittner tailpiece with a larger screw adjuster but it`s gone missing .

I think they wanted a more grainy sound rather than a smooth beautiful sound .There might be a way to tune in a Woody sound .I altered my Octave violin from G# to A and for the lower notes it might be a bit too smooth . The G# had a definite double bass quality . It`s certainly an interesting tonal diversion .So I might change that back again .
Working on semitone adjustments you need to play the first semitone on the main string .Mark where your finger stops the string and measure from there to the nut. Call that S for Semitone .
Check the mainstring length .Call that M.The fraction you need is S divided by M. ---S/M.
Now measure the afterlength eg 55mms.To alter the afterlength by one semitone multiply [ S/M x 55 ]
That comes out somewhere near 2.25 mm.
You can alter the afterlength one semitone upwards or downwards.
That will work whatever the afterlength is at the moment .The adjustment is made by moving the tail gut screws ,
If you want to alter the tuning again use the S/M fraction on the current afterlength

[John Cadd]

Now we know how to move the afterlength notes around we can experiment with 2 octaves and a fourth. It`s close enough to a fifth to see how that sounds .Jazz violinists might be happy with that .A calmer sound might be 2 octaves and a third . It sounds like more fun that sticking to one number like 55 . Don`t forget the 55 or 54.5 is a starting pointin a general setting .It`s not automatically perfect. After that the different woods used can be properly tested and compared.
There is a recent comparison of tailpiece woods from somewhere in Italy .Cremona I think it was .They played a Stradivarius cello and compared Wittner plastic/Rosewood/Cocobolo and Ebony .I noticed the afterlength on each sample was different .I checked the length by holding a notebook against the laptop screen . (Very scientific) .The afterlength was not mentioned so they might not consider that worth the bother ..

[John Cadd]

If you want to check the afterlength note against the open string above ,you can do it by rubbing your thumb fingerprint against the strings.The fingerprint roughness will give an easy check much better than plucking .
If the notes disagree finger the open string untill they match.Then measure the distance from the nut.Use the S/M(semitone/main string ) method to work out the change needed . You could change S/M to W/M.That would be Whatever /Main string .My latest comparison with a small violin shows the G string afterlength note as F # instead of D.It needs the afterlength to be almost 20 mm shorter . Somebody fitted the wrong tailpiece and then melted the nylon loop into two blobs .

[John Cadd]

To get the afterlength to match the open A string I had to try a 3/4 size Wittner with tuners. Now I am trying to get rid of a wolf on open A . I tuned the afterlength (ie made it longer by tightening the tail loop). I am getting far better tone mixed up with sounds I dislike. It`s a hopeful situation though . I am also testing the Krentz weighting method on the top with bluetack . The area (bottom left ) begins to lose the wolf on open A. I think one of those special magnets will do the trick .
My afterlength is closer to 60 mms but the tones ,when it gets close ,are better than I have heard before.
Sound post is still intact .Bridge vertical . String length normal .
The tailpiece question has revealed plenty of positives . This violin is a copy of the Sainton with wonky soundholes .
NB the price of a Krentz tone modulator for a Cello is $660. Ouch !

[John Cadd]

Wittner Ultra Classic Multi is the tailpiece with a central adjuster (using a screwdriver ) that can alter the afterlength while the strings are in place.
Better to do the alteration while gradually reducing the tension .It has a 5mm range of adjustment. If you want it without the 4 tuning adjuster it`s a lot cheaper .
These Ultra Classic Multi Wittners have the tail loop and a separate adjustment screw.On a Daily deals page the ones on Amazon have everything in place,but the ones on ebay (£3 more expensive )do not have the adjustment screw .

[John Cadd]

Because the tuning of an afterlength is vital for tone it seemed a good idea to use a tuner .Sadly if the tuner is set for equal temperament the Fifths will be flattened compared to Pure tuning .It may make a difference if it matters to you .
It`s hard to be certain about what the plucked sound of the afterlength should be. Something approximate might be a guide, but combining the short length of string with the tailpiece mixes up too much to give a clear answer .The tailpiece with an extra screw might work like a radio tuner .There is no such thing as a circuit diagram for a violin , so we have to listen and test gradually .There may be one best position or afterlength and anything that avoids constant dismantling is a bonus .