Violin Forum/Message Board

[Michael Darnton]

Perhaps you should examine why you are having peg problems? For most people they work fine and I get very few complaints. Most people don't have problems shaving them neatly, also.

For instance, using a normal peg shaper try turning the peg in the next smaller hole until you get within about 15mm of the head, then go back and trim off the standing shoulder by going to the previous hole and tilting the peg up against the blade while the peg is fully inserted, shaving off most of the shoulder then going back to the smaller hole to clean it up. Scoring with a knife just at the ring also helps. There's no need to do things that players and everyone else will perceive as "weird".

Same for making pegs work. It's a skill like playing, and can be learned with practice. You shouldn't expect to be able to just rub on some magic sauce and get results, but if you learn the skill it becomes nearly that easy.
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[John Cadd]

Weird must refer to guitar tuners .Or maybe not . Or is weird the simple rounding of a sharp corner on the blades? The use of the middle blade to clean the collar end can`t be called weird. I already do that .Clive Titmus uses old plane blades and all those have rounded corners .
No ,-players who think about "weird " assume everybody can afford luthiers while many live too far away from luthiers . You cannot dismiss humidity changes on pegs. The easy refuge is overusing a row of fine tuners on the tailpiece out of fear of using the pegs . Many guitarists coming to violins have already developed a hatred of friction pegs .They think wooden friction pegs are weird . That`s a dangerous word to use on a forum anyway unless you specify exactly .

[John Cadd]

Crucial question now . Can lookalike geared pegs tune out Beats reliably ? Or are they sometimes a bit lumpy or notchy?
A more basic question is How do the planetary gears in lookalikes stop the string unwinding? Is there any friction surface in the mechanism. Guitar type gears use a worm gear that makes slipping impossible .
Lookalikes must have a worm gear on the central shaft which prevents unwinding . I had to work that out for myself .
AI seems to believe that Wittner or Peghead tuners that give trouble may need treatment with peg lubricant or graphite . Obviously AI does not play a violin but maybe all their duff info will be stuck in the system for eternity . Not many computer sites sweep out the rubbish .

[John Cadd]

Weight on the scroll does not bother Lute makers. Some lutes can have 35 strings and each one has a wooden peg. How much weight is that plus the weight of a larger pegbox ? Does that affect the tone.
Bowlback mandolins were made from the 1700s with wooden pegs and they were steadily replaced with metal geared tuners because they were more reliable, That was for pairs of strings that needed more precise tuning . All in Italy by the way .They ran out of magic sauce .

[John Cadd]

This is a note on Geared Pegs --about peg shaving .I would not have bothered to write about shaving pegs if I had not tried Palmwood Pegs .Most people would have trouble with Palmwood if they thought it was as easy as ebony . It looks nice though .

[John Cadd]

Right then .Back on track with Geared Pegs today. There would be no point in describing Guitar Tuners on a violin without listing the drawbacks . The rollers will be too long for a violin scroll so they have to be sawn off to the right length so that they do not obstruct the tuners on the opposite side .The standard single tuners have small fixing holes but they will be just where the opposite peg hole lands. So you need to mark where a solid piece of wood will hold the tuner.
You will need a marker to start the new hole in the baseplate.Any metal worker will be at home with this.
Arranging the parts to avoid touching the players hand is important . Making sure the final positions are not fighting your thumbs and fingers when tuning .
The gear tuners with a shaped brass plate both sides can be seen on sale but for some reason they do not keep the rollers in standard positions which is frustrating for customers . That is why I tried single guitar tuners. Mandolin tuners are no use as the rollers are shaped with a groove and hole at the end unlike guitar rollers. If you want a string hole in the centre you will need to drill it yourself. Yet another chore . Manufacturers could adapt there machines to make violin fitting quite easy . The one millimetre pilot holes for tiny screws will not remove as much wood as some reamers. One older cheaper violins with worn out pegholes it hardly matters .
That concludes the answer to the question --Why don`t we use guitar tuners ? I have worked through the topic and tested various ways to make it work .I don`t feel like a criminal for filling in the answer to an often asked question .
Finally --Do they work ? Yes they do . Do they spoil the tone with extra weight in the scroll ? No. The objectors may disagree but without trying them personally they don`t count .They need less finger pressure . Fine tuners spoiling the tone on tailpieces are not necessary .It`s a lot cheaper to buy them . If anything wears out they can be repaired with a screwdriver in 5 minutes .Visually they look as ugly as a Double Bass or many Cellos . They will reduce the selling price if you want to trade one in . That`s your choice .
As far as I could I have filled in the answer .

[John Cadd]

I saw the most unusual violin this week on ebay.Made in Russia some time ago It had the brass tuner scroll plates with exposed gears .The top had no overhang but looked more like a guitar and the rib corners were not straight and vertical ,but curved outwards in a semicircle . The colour was almost purple . I imagine the tuning was just as easy as when it was made. Almost like a violin from a distant planet .
Another Russian violin with curved corner ribs is on ebay but this one has standard wooden pegs and the label inside reads Rigart Rubus St Petersburg 1850. The beauty of this Guitar style outline (no overhang ) with curved corner ribs is there will rarely be any corners chipped off . From a straight on view the violin looks completely standard .

[Michael Darnton]

https://www.google.com/search?q=rigat+rubus+violin
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my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[John Cadd]

The Rounded edges and corners curves have an impression of a pebble on the seashore . Any normal player would expect to fit a shoulder rest unlike Nathan Milstein who must be regarded as abnormal by now . The chinrest "problem " shows that modern players have no adventurous instincts that might get them to remove some varnish and glue on 2 ridges to fit the clamps.
I had the impression the guitar edges avoided purfling . That would make more sense but some versions include purfling . One possible benefit of the curved corner ribs would be the curves joined together and making a stiffer corner without blocks. The simple idea of clamping two rib surfaces together would come first. The rounding down would be a logical next step .It makes the corners line more a clean point than the standard violin .
The modern evolution towards violins that cater for shoulder rests and chinrests does not mean Stradivari or Amati foresaw such additions . It has to be seen as carelesness or good luck.

[John Cadd]

Geared tuning pegs with open gears and brass side plates are advertised on the Thomann site .Out of curiosity I tried to order them. They want all sorts of persnal details including a postcode. That was entered and kept turning red. Eventually I asked for advice in the bottom corner . After explaining the rejection they said to try a different browser . I asked for a suggestion. Google Chrome was one suggested . I am using that already I said . --Answer--Try another one .
So these tuners will not be flooding the market just yet .
Edit two days later From Thomann
The postcode I used was printed with a space in the "correct" position.
"Please ensure the postcode is correctly formatted". --Pure BS from Germany .So that is one less customer .

[John Cadd]

Grover advertise violin tuners .They Had a design that used a friction collar like a fibre washer to create friction.Now they have a new advert calling the tuners Sta Tite tuners .
Asking AI if Sta Tite tuners have gears --the answer is Yes.
Delving deeper into AI the answer is No.
By the way if The brass plate tuners are never going to be sold I have an even cruder solution . Some guitar tuners with very decorative plates -3 pegs per side have perfect peg spacing for violins. But one peg has to be cut off . Then you will have 2 pegs on a straight plate fitted to a curvy scroll . Enough to jar any violin teacher .But the action would be superb .

[John Cadd]

Thomann had the shaped plates to fit a violin scroll with guitar gears .After some hassle with Thomann where I was found guilty of spacing my Postcode incorrectly
I asked what the spacing was between the roller shafts . A week later they gave a diagram with measurements . Roller spacing is 30mm.Why they don`t include that in adverts is a mystery .
Sadly the Thomann measurement is nowhere near the standard spacing used by Ali Express violin scrolls which is 35mm .Better to make your own scroll for those tuners .They still hold a place as one of the quirky parts of violin history aside form the fact that they work so well .
The pegs that use friction and call themselves Friction Pegs use a fibre collar which is tightened with a cross head screw. These should not be confused with the original friction pegs made of wood .It makes you wonder of Friction Pegs have any gears inside them . The answer is No . I can`t say if they work well or not .