Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

Today I received a set of four geared pegs from AliExpress .Much cheaper price than the well known models . They all look exactly the same to me .Peering closely to the ends of the pegs there is no marking to indicate left side or right side fitting .Turning them by hand you can notice minor difference when turned to rotate the moving string section .Maybe they rely on some friction component inside .The shaft section nearest the peg head has 4 tiny ridges that may keep them secure against the pegbox wood . The ridges are close to the moving string section to give the normal stand off from the pegbox.So the diameter of the peghole is crucial .
The thin end of the pegs are free wheeling and simply counteract leverage from the string tension.
The extreme end of each thin bit have the same molding mark like a thick line across a circle.All four are the same .
I refitted an end pin in one old violin to take up some slackness .I made a final adjustment by adding a piece of notepaper .A few dots of superglue held the paper in place. Then some more dots where the end pin would touch . When that dried I used the reamer to clean out the final fit . That worked very well without removing any wood . Maybe the peg tuners could use that method if the pegs are not an instant perfect fit .
Some piano technicians use superglue on tuning pins that have become too loose . The glue consolidates the wood but does not glue the steel pin in place . It just takes up the slack . That is different to gluing a geared peg directly to the pegbox wood .
Nothing in the pegs themselves suggests any form of adjustment .

[John Cadd]

I had very little trouble fitting the AliExpress pegs .I needed the reamer for a slight adjustment to two pegholes. That`s not too much .Some advice is to check the string holes are clear before fitting .I needed to clear away bits of plastic swarf with the point of a diamond file. The holes are smaller than wooden peg holes and the main difference is the holes do not go straight through the centre of the peg . If you imagine a cross section of the peg -- the hole starts at 12 oclock and exits about 4 oclock. That avoids the central shaft .
Because the holes are narrow the string ends needs to be straight enough to get inside the hole . Steel strings like the E string need special attention . You need to straighten out the kinks first.
The accuracy of tuning is a questionmark . They seem to tune in steps .That is not as accurate as a tailpiece fine tuner but the pegs will not fight you the way wooden pegs will .No extra sideways pressure is needed for these geared pegs.
I think these are a reasonable compromise to reduce the hassle of wooden pegs.The stepping action could be combined with stretching the strings.You will be able to work out your own adjustment routine .A lightweight gold coloured fine tuner on the tailpiece is best kept in place. I will be testing a Pernambuco tailpiece soon and this is also an AliExpress bargain.

[John Cadd]

The morning after fitting the AliExpress tuning pegs I checked to see how much the notes moved with one "click".You don`t hear a click but you feel it like going over a tiny bump.Generally the note changes by about 10 cents measured with a Korg Orchestral tuner.
I have never used a tuning meter with a violin before but 10 cents is far less accurate than checking the beats between strings . Fortunately there is one ebay seller offering used fine tuners and at £2,35 each for lightweight German tuners it solves the problem of accuracy . There are fine tuners from other countries but the German ones looked cleaner.
The appearance will be standard and accuracy will be good.But is that better than single guitar style tuners that do it all without any complications ?
The more expensive Peg tuners available will prompt players to trust the fitting to a luthier and that puts up the price twice . But violin playing is a Rich Man`s or Woman`s or Person`s game these days . The English language is gradually getting bent out of shape .
I noticed when I checked the tuning today that all the strings had dropped by at least a semitone overnight .
The narrow string holes could be a problem on the AliExpress tuners. I put on a new Tonica Pirastro A string and the silk winding was too thick at the end and I had to cut off half an inch to get it in .The D and G might be more trouble again unless the string end is stripped bare.

[John Cadd]

The idea of fitting cheaper geared pegs that look traditional and adding tailpiece fine tuners is not too wacky .The end result is accurate tuning .The metal tailpieces with built in fine tuners makes a good match , But I wanted to to try some pernambuco tailpieces ,which are also on AliExpress . One lady violist has a demonstration of the tone difference when changing to a Pernambuco tailpiece . It was impressive .

[John Cadd]

I came to the conclusion that cheap AliExpress geared pegs should combine with metal tailpieces with built in tuners. That is suitable for any players that prefer the tone of those tailpices .
My extreme choice would be a pernambuco tailpiece with no fine tuners and separate guitar style tuner machines .Separate tuners can fit any peg position whereas some makers have brass plates to match the scroll shapes .These will only fit where the peg holes line up properly .Some Italian makers put pairs of pegs apart from each other .G and E nearer the nut ,and D and A nearer the scroll. A different style .
Guitar or Mandolin separate tuners have one advantage over traditional violin pegs--The peg access for left hand is underneath the scroll .Normal violin pegs for A and E strings are harder to reach. Guitar pegs turn in a more natural movement for left hands .
But violin peg images are burned into our brains and convenience and comfort have to take second place even though guitar tuners will allow for real gut strings and no extra weight near the bridge .
Weight at the scroll with guitar tuners is 2.6 grams extra .The same as a wooden end pin. Edgar Russ did an experiment to see what the scroll weight did to tone.He sawed off the scroll on a reasonable Chinese violin and the tone was quickly spoiled. Having no "useless" weight with the fancy shaped scroll the tone was much worse . Watch the video which has a before and after sound demonstration .

[John Cadd]

[quote="John Cadd"]I came to the conclusion that cheap AliExpress geared pegs should combine with metal tailpieces with built in tuners. That is suitable for any players that prefer the tone of those tailpices .
I bought a set of lightweight fine tuners to use on a wooden tailpiece and ran into a huge problem with the mechanics of the tuner details . Mainly the small pivot piece that moves the strings.The metal blocks that hold the pivot were sometimes pressed too tight.The pivots had rough edges that snagged the metal plock. Some pivot pieces were a bit too long and banged into the block.They needed filing shorter . A myriad of problems which would create hassle for the player . These were Hill design fine tuners . One stamped Germany was no better than the others .
My extreme choice would be a Pernambuco tailpiece with no fine tuners and separate guitar style tuner machines .Separate tuners can fit any peg position whereas some makers have brass plates to match the scroll shapes .These will only fit where the peg holes line up properly . The shaped plate style have ,lamentably , White tuner pegs . White is a bridge too far but the pegs colours could be changed .Some Italian makers put pairs of pegs apart from each other .G and E nearer the nut ,and D and A nearer the scroll. A different style .
Guitar or Mandolin separate tuners have one advantage over traditional violin pegs--The peg access for left hand is underneath the scroll .Normal violin pegs for A and E strings are harder to reach. Guitar pegs turn in a more natural movement for left hands .
But violin peg images are burned into our brains and convenience and comfort have to take second place even though guitar tuners will allow for real gut strings and no extra weight near the bridge .
Weight at the scroll with guitar tuners is 2.6 grams extra .The same as a wooden end pin. Edgar Russ did an experiment to see what the scroll weight did to tone.He sawed off the scroll on a reasonable Chinese violin and the tone was quickly spoiled. Having no "useless" weight with the fancy shaped scroll the tone was much worse . Watch the video which has a before and after sound demonstration .[/quote]

[John Cadd]

There are 4 makes of geared pegs that look traditional. I don`t include guitar style tuners with them .
I bought the cheaper no name Ali Express set that can fit anywhere ,right or left with no instructions included. Price about 30 something pounds .
The big three are all about £90 or more and need a luthier to work on them . I have seen a fitting demonstration for one type.2 left and 2 right with right and left hand threads needing some glue. The glue type changes from time to time in descriptions. That vague uncertainty about fitting still haunts the subject.
The bottom line for these 3 main types is ---Can they accurately tune a pair of strings by reducing beats . That`s all that really matters if you play a violin. Is that word Smooth enough to pin that down ?
Personally ,even though I dislike the appearance of guitar style tuners ,I cannot see any logical objections to them . Changing humidity has no effect on them .
Even the great players in the Amadeus StringQuartet would mention struggling with frustrating pegs and taking a pair of pliers to do the adjustments.
In the very unlikely case of a guitar tuner giving trouble the replacement is just a few pounds.
I saw the Amadeus quartet play in their final year in Chester Cathedral and not once did I look to see what kind of tuner pegs they had fitted .

[John Cadd]

I had fitted a skeleton fiddle with guitar tuning pegs .The peg ends in metal were allowed to poke out with the D and A and E strings. This left a restricted space for the tiny metal plates holding the brass gears.I had to file away the metal areas to allow for the peg rollers. I had chosen the guitar tuners with the least amount of metal and well placed screw holes .
The first attempt worked well but the peg angles were not quite symetrical .
I will need to draw some alternative plate shapes to improve that .
The best plate shapes to buy will have more metal which can be shaped to suit the scroll shapeand my fingertips . Once I have filed it all to shape I can make my own screw holes. The pilot hole drill is tiny but makes very secure fixings .
The second attempt I bought mandolin tuners .They have smaller buttons and the holes are on the ends of the rollers with a groove. I had to drill central holes for them . Instead of filing the plates I tried cutting the rollers shorter but the rollers are hollow and it was difficult to cut them accurately . It works well but the finish is primitive .But I had the chance to try my new pernambuco tailpiece with the slanting end . The G string has more room to breath. Does that work ? Who knows .I also changed to Tonic synthetic strings to escape the harshness of steel The freedom from peg annoyances is so refreshing . I will try different combinations of tuners .Just imagine how double bass players manage .

[John Cadd]

I had fitted a skeleton fiddle with guitar tuning pegs .The peg ends in metal were allowed to poke out with the D and A and E strings. This left a restricted space for the tiny metal plates holding the brass gears.I had to file away the metal areas to allow for the peg rollers. I had chosen the guitar tuners with the least amount of metal and well placed screw holes .
The first attempt worked well but the peg angles were not quite symmetrical .
I will need to draw some alternative plate shapes to improve that .
The best plate shapes to buy will have more metal which can be shaped to suit the scroll shape and my fingertips . Once I have filed it all to shape I can make my own screw holes. The pilot hole drill is tiny but makes very secure fixings .
The second attempt I bought mandolin tuners .They have smaller buttons and the holes are on the ends of the rollers with a groove. I had to drill central holes for them . Instead of filing the plates I tried cutting the rollers shorter but the rollers are hollow and it was difficult to cut them accurately . It works well but the finish is primitive .But I had the chance to try my new pernambuco tailpiece with the slanting end . The G string has more room to breath. Does that work ? Who knows .I also changed to Tonic synthetic strings to escape the harshness of steel The freedom from peg annoyances is so refreshing . I will try different combinations of tuners .Just imagine how double bass players manage .

[John Cadd]

I found one useful source of parts for geared guitar pegs. I had some spare full size guitar pegs. Standard 3 in a row design . Left and right . I cut one up to make them fit the violin. The single guitar design made the peg angles look very untidy. So to make each left and right pair parrallel I had to recreate the D string tuner first. The G string peg had a fairly wide button which came too close to the neck curve. so I chose instead one with round buttons. Cutting off the third tuner might have simplified the job but the spaces between the rollers did not match. By cutting the pair apart It made a step from the scroll curve. A player would feel more comfortable with pegs turning in the same plane.
The peg lines coming from the right side had to be marked for cutout holes. By this stage the parts being cut and filed were getting very small and awkward. It`s not practical to clamp single gear tuners in a vice. A main part of this is to create screw holes either side of the string rollers .
One original wooden peg had been fitted a bit slanted and the roller end was catching on the right hand side .But these holes in the scroll were getting too large anyway .They really needed rebushing .
This may seem a waste of effort until you hear the downside comments about Gut strings needing constant retuning and basically saying don`t bother about Tone Quality .Lets take the easy way out. The grainy voice like sounds of Gut strings have become a drawback . Speed of bow action has become the new standard and forget the tone bit . .These guitar tuners will blend in perfectly to make it all work . But the difficulty of getting some peg symmetry surprised me . Any manufacturer would find it very simple .

[John Cadd]

One feature of standard guitar tuners is the right angled design.The curves of a violin scroll are fighting that but mostly guitar rollers are not that tightly controlled.The guitar rollers are straight circular section unlike tapered wooden violin pegs .
When fitting guitar parts to violins this is worth bearing in mind.I don`t know the exact ,perfect way to ream out violin pegs. I`ll admit that right now . Is the centre line of the peg meant to be "horizontal " or is the top edge the most important . I have never found a completely perfect set of violin pegs in a violin . It`s not what a lot of players think about .
If the guitar pegs are inserted ,the main benefit comes from support of the pegbox hole at the far side.That would be a stable situation . The D string might give the most trouble as the pegbox sides change the curve angle a bit more than the other pegs . That depends on the original scroll shape which is more fluid between different violins .If the D string roller tilted down from left to right the string would keep a close coil as it winds up to the left.So not a disadvantage .
Plenty of detailed aspects to consider .
Looking at the tiny hands of many young players it feels cruel to expect them to struggle with friction pegs before they get round to playing the hardest instrument of all .

[John Cadd]

A video from Kennedy Violins gives shockingly bad advice to stop pegs slipping.They say to slacken the string and pull it sideways as you wind up the tension and the string will be pressed against the pegbox wall . That will damage the string and the pegbox and maybe the peg as well .It will create plenty of expensive renovations for repairers. The comments are also shocking when Teachers chime in to applaud the Kennedy Violins Bodge .
If you try to read between the lines there are several ways to notice drawbacks with wooden friction pegs which are cleverly disguised as tradition /appearance /peer pressure /snobbery /one upmanship/ effortless superiority /fear of dissaproval.
Most guitar players dislike friction pegs and are not afraid to say so .
Apart from that it will still be a good idea to have one fine tuner on the tailpiece for the E string .

[John Cadd]

Now is this topic of value to players ?Well two violin shops advertising their wares on the net Kennedy Violins and Fiddlershop are both recommending pulling the string sideways after slackeneing ,and then winding the string up tight to the pegbox to stop the peg slipping . That is shameful ,bad advice to be broadcasting nonsense like that .

[John Cadd]

If you look closely at guitar style tuner gears you will find two basic types .The cheapest and maybe the commonest hold the bevel gear in a pair of hooks. These hooks are formed by bending the base plate edges upwards. The disadvantage with this type is the bevel needs some room to move and often the bevel will be free to rattle.
The other style encircles the bevel gear ends and the rattling will be very unlikely . These are still "open gears".The construction is a bit more involved but more reliable .
Those details are important in a violin which needs to vibrate.
The physical fitting onto a violin has the problem of contact with the wood in the pegholes. The friction needed for wooden pegs needs to be removed to let the metal rollers slide smoothly .Thin beeswax is useful for this .Currently straight guitar rollers (no grooves) are all in one length so they poke out at the ends at the A string peg. This needs the standard single tuner plate to be filed to shape .
I persevere in this project to discover all the drawbacks that might end with disaster . Only a few cheaper violins are used but the different tuners are plentiful and can be tested to destruction if necessary .
The more reliable bevel gear models are fixed with screws through the peg head. The screws are long enough but might like a dot of thread lock to keep them secure.
I was surpised to hear that some geared pegs that mimic wooden pegs are still able to slip with some steel strings. That`s just an added detail for background .

[John Cadd]

The first attempt to fit guitar (or mandolin ) tuners came out with minimal cutting of the base plates ,but the angles of the tuning pegs was wrong and the G string peg was obstructed by the D string peg. Getting the angles right made some base plates cover the hole for the opposite side roller. A first attempt to cut the rollers to size was botched but it was the right idea . When rollers are hollow the end just needs to be filled and smoothed .
So the project will progress with fewer drawbacks now. Some rollers are made of brass and they may not be hollow .
The few that have been completed work very smoothly .