Violin Forum/Message Board

Chet Bishop · Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:59 am Post subject:

I'm curious: if you collected sap from a cut in a balsam fir (of any sort) would it be significantly different than that crystal-clear stuff that comes from those blisters?

Young douglas firs produce those blisters, too, in the summer, and I just wonder if you get the same stuff from a cut in the bark as you do from those balsam-blisters.
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Dave Chandler · Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:10 am Post subject:

I think you have to go deep in the tree to get any sap, it doesn't run from cuts. But if it did, I would suspect it is the same liquid. This is what makes the collection of the balsam resin so difficult.

Not sure if the resin from the douglas fir would be an equivalent.

I'm wondering if the balsam resin were cooked a bit to get some of the liquid components out (cracked), then thinned with alcohol, would make a good seal or ground. Next experiment I guess. Here's a paragraph from Joe Robsons site regarding balsam grounds. http://www.violinvarnish.com/synopsis.htm

Now that I read his article, he includes hemlock, which is quite resinous. I have lots of helmlock right in my yard, some are 3' diameter. I may tap those and see if its easier.
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Chet Bishop · Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject:

The latin name for doug fir means "false hemlock", so maybe it is close in some way.
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Dave Chandler · Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:39 pm Post subject:

IF they get blisters only in the summer, then I guess I better get busy.
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DonLeister · Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:46 pm Post subject:

Guys, there's a small company in Georgia that taps pines for the resin,
http://www.diamondgforestproducts.com/About-Us.html
You can see how they do it, sort of. They used to have a good description of how they did it on their website; drill a hole, spray acid on the hole, put a pipe in it and then tie a bag on the pipe to collect it. You can see some pictures of that on their link. I'm not sure what the acid does.

I bet they would tell you exactly how they do it if you called them. They seem like they want to promote the pine gum industry. As you can see from the pics, they collect it in a modern way as opposed to slashing the tree like it was done way back.

Me, I have no suitable trees on my property to experiment with, if I had some spruce or balsam fir I would be trying their method out.
Especially with spruce, since the Greiner Stradivari varnish book proposes spruce resin as a ideal varnish ingredient. Also, only the liquid spruce gum will blend with turpentine, if it is oxidized and hardened it won't.

DonLeister · Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:55 am Post subject:

Michael Darnton · Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:15 pm Post subject:

The reason not to use hardware store oil is because it's dirty with water-soluble parts that won't go into an oil varnish, but coalesce as snot in your varnish as you cook it. If you're going to use hardware store oil you should always wash it before use, then it will be fine.

To do that, mix it half/half with water in a glass cider jug and shake, shake, shake. When it settles you'll notice an oil layer, a layer of dirty water, and a layer in between. You only want the oil, not the stuff that comes out of it. Repeat with new water until the water stays clean--usually two or three times is enough.

Using the best quality artists oil saves this step.

The first squeezing of the seed is the cleanest, then subsequent squeezings get out more and more that isn't oil from the mashed sludge. Artist oil comes first, and hardware oil is a subsequent pressing with a lot of crud.

The part you missed in Varnish 101 is that any varnish made with a solvent is a solvent varnish and what dries on the violin is basically the same as the resins you started with, unchange, after the solvent evaporates. The solvent does not participate in the varnish, it's only a temporary carrier. Spirit varnish is made with alcohol (spirits), but you can make turpentine-only varnishes that are solvent varnishes, and also traditional lacquer is a solvent varnish using nitrocellulose as the resin and a special solvent.

Oil varnishes don't dry by simple evaporation: they dry by the oil component of the varnish hardening, the same as oil hardens under your jars in your pantry. The solvent is simply there as a thinner; really, the varnish resins are dissolved in the oil, before the solvent is added, and thinners aren't really necessary. An oil varnish can be dissolved with solvents, but it is not then what it was when it was originally made, as a spirit varnish would be--it's an oxidized compound that doesn't resemble the original components. A bit like epoxy--you can get it off with solvents, but you can't reuse it as expoy.
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