Violin Forum/Message Board

[folktooler]

Hello, my name is Jonathan.
I've been playing violin since i was a young child and developped into a diversity in different musical instruments. The violin, being my first instrument learned, will always remain my favorite for a great travel companion. I've been interested in making my own violin ever since I lost the one I'd been travelling in victoria city, 2011. (since then I've had the grace the universe to be given a cheap chinese violin from a stranger in northern california).
Now A' days, I'm in school, living in a small appartement with a nifty workbench and a sweet collection of hand tools for wood-working of all kind.
I keep myself occupied with all kinds of projects (basket weaving, wood and soapstone sculpture, tool making and cabinet making) but lutherie resides to me as somwhat of a dream, the ultimate form form sculpture for harmonic purpose; precise and delicate.

Anyway, I met an old master in violin lutherie in the town i'm staying in, but he's somewhat of a folk artisan, where he made violins as a hobby, and doesn't know very much about quality of sound.
My plans for this summer are to make a trapazoid violin for a close friend of mine, then make an attempt on a five string violin (which i hear could simply be 3% larger in all proportions to a full size violin). My first question is: Can I pyrograve the back of a violin, or will that drastically deminish the sound quality, do I absolutely have to stain or paint?
and my second question would be about the typically ebony pieces, I've searched on several forums and none of them ever talk about ivory, but I've heard from this master that some quality violins used ivory "chevalet" (... string bridge..?) but it`s not popular because it costs too much.
Do any of y'all know anything about this, what would happen if I used a moose antler (very very dense bone) as a fingerboard, chin rest, pegs, nut and that part that holds the strings on the nut.

I've been using this material for pendent making, and just as sculpting material for some time, and I'm very impressed with the attributes that it has.

then, also. I have a few questions of whether it's best by buy wood from professionnals (which isn't really what I want to do), or is it relatively easy to pick a decent tree and dry the wood in a couple months...

any insight on the use of a bone fingerboard and such, will be deeply appreciated. No matter the advice, i'll probably try it anyway.

thanks.
-Jonathan

[folktooler]

so I noticed that a few people have read this article and havn't posted any comment. I understand how naive I must seem, I'm strictly an amateur but a passionate player of any instrument. I have a strong beleif that any violin, a master instrument or a folk tool for back country jams, will inevitably have it's own charm, and find a practical use for music playing.

I'm just wondering if i can use Bone as a finger board, since it won't wear easily (the reason why we use rose wood, hard maple or ebony), without it drastically change the sound.
This is no insult to the art of violin making, i'm not trying to make a decoration, the pyro graving part is just to give a touch of beauty to what i'd offer to my friend to use and travel with, Once again, hoping that it won't affect the acoustic resonance of the grain.
I'm very skeptical that my idea is good, and I'm just asking for opinions of the matter from the pros and experienced hobbyists.

thanks.

[rs]

I have made my share of decorated instruments and doubt the pyro-engraving you desire should have an effect on the instrument's performance in either direction of better or worse.

You can make the instrument out of any wood you like.

Bone for the board might be the most radical of the things you suggested, but certainly the most easily changed if you don't like the outcome.

The above are my opinions.

I don't make decorated instruments unless asked nowadays. I was STRONGLY discouraged from making any more from some very talented and influential makers and dealers. They liked the instruments personally, but viewed them a hard sell. Their advice to me was to concentrate on the standard approach of the old makers. Nothing radical, standard accessories and ALWAYS European maple and spruce. I listened to this.

This does not mean I will never make decorated instruments again. I have plans to make a decorated violin for my wife (a surprise) sometime later this year because she personally loved the decorated guitar I made for her.
_________________
Randall Shenefelt

[folktooler]

thanks alot for your advice and experience.
By decoration, I always think of purfling and stuff like that(which I read has a drastic effect on the sound of the instrument). Pyro-engraving was more for decorating the trapezoid violin for my friend by drawing his favorite tree (Taxodium distichum) on the back. And I'm glad to hear you think it might have little effect.

I'm also glad you reassure me by telling me that all these peices can easily be replaced. I'm so full of ideas that I didn't even think about that.

By european wood, do you mean european essences or from european temperture and climat and gathered by european professionnal luthier wood gatherers?. because I know that up here in mid Quebec, there are some norweigian spruce tree(Picea abies), white spruce (Picea glauca)( that have been introduced with the colonists), and also black spruce (Picea mariana) that is also common in northern europe. (common french names of trees)
If the reason for the want of european wood is for the attributes of the wood, the same essences should give me the same result over here.
(I believe)

lastly, with a 3-4% augmenation of the size of the violin, would my pegbox be the right size have the extra tuning peg added?

[rs]

European wood from Europe. The main reason for me is that is what the best players and dealers expect from the best instruments. I have absolutely no interest in attempting a change to this trend.

I played a violin about 30 years ago that was made of black walnut for the back and ribs, well, it looked to me to be of black walnut. Truthfully, it sounded fine to me and the player who owned it swore it was easier for him to play than any he had ever played. I can't picture many other players wanting one, though. If he ever sold it, I can't imagine anyone giving him very much for it, although I might be surprised.

All of the above is sticking to a standard I have been counseled to follow, and I will do so without deviation unless instructed otherwise. If someone, like your friend, wants something different, that is totally fine. If I had a friend that asked me to make a violin out of a different wood, form, etc., I would have no hesitation to do so. The number one challenge to a maker is to make an instrument that the person playing it wishes to play more than any instrument he has ever played. Sometimes what the player wishes for is a bit out of the ordinary.

As for the peg box size, I have never made a five-string instrument. There are several here who have and could give some really good advice on the subject.
_________________
Randall Shenefelt

[FiddleDoug]

You would need one heck of a huge bone to make a fingerboard! I don't know what the weight would be, and it would be VERY hard to work. (You can plane ebony, but not bone!) Ivory is basically illegal.
_________________
Doug Wall

www.wallindependent.com

[folktooler]

I found a moose antler and used it all up, but I guarantee that any 3 year old moose can provide a big enough trophy for this project. A teacher of mine has a fur tanning/artisan shop and has many sizes of antlers. I've already done a project that he asked of me out of this material. I use a dremmel and sanding paper to work with this material.
Contraty to "bone" really, this has no pores (holes for nerves or veins) on the inside of the marrow, as all the veins of and antler are in the "duvet", the exterior skin of the antler.

they are easy to find every janurary here if you keep good track of animal activity.
I know this has nothing to do with violin making so i'll add that I've also decided to make a home made "stain" out of the water that comes up from the tree Populus balsamifera in the srping. it's got a beautiful brownish-ginger color.
I read about this in the art of violin making. I don't have the book with me now so I can't name the author.

[JG]

Sounds like an interesting project. I'm not a builder, only a player (and not a good one), but I would think that at the stage you're at you shouldn't worry about using the "best" woods, or even about making instruments that will sell. Get through a few to learn the basic skills and procedures, and see how you and your playing friends like them.

Lots of possibilities for North American woods, and lots of builders harvest and age their own, though probably that's more common for guitars and mandolins than for violins. I've met Frank Daniels (Frank's Fiddles) from Idaho, and he seems to be quite an experimenter. He says on his site:

"Frank uses various wood types for his instrument backs: Silver, Big Leaf and Quilted Maple; Carolina Poplar, Sycamore and Mrytlewood (when available). Frank uses Engelmann Spruce that he cuts near McCall, Idaho or Colorado Engelmann Spruce that he purchases from Simeon Chambers for his instrument tops."

I too am wondering, how much would an antler fingerboard weigh?

Good luck!

[folktooler]

I'll let you know in a month or two, Or maybe a week after somebody confirms that a normal fingerboard in larger preportions by 3% is a good idea to hold five strings. old maybe not, since the trapezoid one will have 4 stings.
anyway, thank you. I'll let you know JG after it's done and well sanded.

[kjb]

3% ius fine for a 5 string.
here is a link with my dimensions
http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330026-building-a-5-string-fiddle/?hl=%2Bbuilding+%2Bfive+%2Bstring

[kjb]

with a trap instrument you are kind of in a different place as far as acoustics go, so its hard to tell what the sound will be . you may have to experiment quite a bit and build more than one to get a feel for how it all works.

as far as maple a lot of people use red maple from the north east, and say it has a similar density.

have you looked at how to make a finger board? if you can do that out of bone, then go for it , I am guessing that bone is not as hard as ebony , but I don't know that . you may end up putting grooves in it faster with the strings.
even mammoth ivory is getting to be suspect, which would mean traveling with the instrument could be a problem, but in this case it may not make any difference.
on the whole go for it, you are making it and you can do what ever you want , you may find something very interesting, and most of all it will be an enjoyable project, and you will learn a lot. good luck

[Dave Chandler]