Violin Forum/Message Board

[newlucas]

Hello list, hello to all,
i am a new member to the Violin Forum, so first some information on me. I am an IT-engineer from Germany, playing violin for about 6 years. Though it is not my first and only instrument, it is my most beloved.
After 6 years playing an old instrument that i got from my grandfather - a quite average industry made instrument from the late 1930`s , i came across an instrument, that i bought, and i consider to be a better one. But i`m not sure if it has a solid carved spruce top or a solid spruce top, pressed in a mould?
That it is a solid spruce top is quite sure, cause it can be seen in the f-holes.
From the manufacturer label i would consider it a carved top. It is a C.G. Schuster jun. Violin made in 1937 in Markneukirchen, one of the european centers of violin makers. And C.G. Schuster jun. is a renown violin maker in a long family tradition of the Schusters, who produced handmade master instruments.
But i am not quite sure. Can i distinguish a solid spruce top from a pressed one, by looking at the grain of the wood? If a top is carved, the lines of the grain should be wider at the sides of the instrument than in the centre? Because of the archetop carving, there is a different angle the grain is cut in the middle than it is at the side of the top?!
Excuse my English, i hope, it can be understood, what i mean.
Thanks in advance for any answer , cheers from Germany,
newlucas

[JG]

Greetings, newlucas. I'm curious about this question myself, as I play sometimes on an American-made violin whose top is probably pressed. I wasn't aware this construction method was ever used in Germany, though I know pressed violins have been made in France.

I think you won't be able to distinguish carved from pressed by the look of the grain, as a pressed top will likely still be made using a book-matched plank of spruce, that is, two pieces joined with a seam down the middle. (So you will still see finer grain in the middle, wider near the edges.) As for the angle of the grain lines themselves, it's an interesting thought. Can you see the lines in your f-holes angling away from each other? I'll have to look for this on my own violin.

What I have noticed with pressed instruments (fiddles, guitars, mandolins) is that the edges of the plate aren't as nicely shaped as on a carved instrument. The curve looks simpler, and the lowest point is at the edge itself. That is, no "recurve", where the soundboard rises to the edge. But this is really only an impression I have formed from cheap instruments, and there may be makers who have used a more sophisticated technique for pressing.

What is it about the violin you've bought that makes you suspect it may be pressed?

[Michael Darnton]

The pressed tops I've seen have had very gentle transitions in the arching everywhere, especially near the ends, and the arching was low. The best way to see it is on the inside, where they don't have real platforms for the end blocks, such as one would intentionally carve into a top, but just happen to be flat enough in this area for gluing, sort of. The other way to tell is to wash the inside with water, which will make it flatten out right away! (You don't want to do that!)
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[Bob Sp]

How common are pressed tops? I assume we are not talking about laminated ones that are formed aver a mold?

[Michael Darnton]

Not too common in the classical violin world--maybe more in fiddles and antique stores. They were used for only the very cheapest violins. It's one tiny step up from plywood, and they sound pretty nasty.

Another thing to check that I just remembered is that the backs are usually uniform thickness, not thicker in the middle, and around 3.0mm.

I'm doubting that a German violin from 1937 would be pressed. I think the pressed era was older--like towards the late 1800s.
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[JG]

Yes, it's a method reserved for cheap instruments built in quantity.

I'm not sure about European builders, but at least one American company built pressed fiddles in the 1930's. And scads of basic archtop guitars and mandolins were built that way in that period. The Gibson company for decades (up till the sixties?) offered a range of qualities, from pressed plywood tops to pressed spruce, to carved spruce. I think it's still common for cheap mandolins.

I think the lower range JTL medio fino violins were pressed, but don't know when they were building them.

(By the way, I find the inner edges of my f-holes were painted black, so I can't check the direction of the grain lines.)

[viola_license_revoked]

[viola_license_revoked]

oops

hello newlucas

not sure why last post didn't appear. posting for the first time. i'm dumb. sorry.

i think some think mass produced pressed tops are somewhat different from handmade bent tops.

off the top of my head i can think of (this info in pdf):
http://www.helenviolinmaker.com/talks_articles_files/Dartington%20talk%20transcript%20with%20pics.pdf

there's a lot more stuff online and in print if you are interested...

this is not the best indicator, but if you look at the grain of the center joint of a 2 piece bent top, , it may tend to have a slightly bowed profile running end to end. this is because bending pushes the center apart and pulls the ends together. when joining, this becomes a challenge to hide.

bent tops may also tend to have flatter quarters and as mentioned earlier by people who know more than me, it may look flatter overall with litlle recurve. as an amateur maker, i confess i don't have a good eye and can't always tell the difference.

i will venture to guess that it is unlikely that you have a pressed instrument. they are kind of rare and get thrown out a lot!

here's one of my bent tops in-the-making next to a carved back for arching comparison from the inside.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9T5onM8gWbE/TZ10qMDjZjI/AAAAAAAAAcg/nKROCVyKF6Q/s1600/vla+7_2.jpg

as for sound, here's one i made from many years ago. please excuse the bad playing. i'm not known to be a violist:
http://youtu.be/rpC69QFi3OA


cheers

ray

[Michael Darnton]

There is another thing that makers often do, however, that will make the grain lines in the center be not straight, and that is flip one side of the top end-for-end, so that the grainlines, if they're not perfectly vertical, will run square to the arching. The old Cremonese makers did this, as do makers who emulate them.

There was quite a fad for bent top carved violins a couple of decades ago. I went to a VSA demonstration where Ed Campbell played one on stage. He waxed eloquent about how much nicer the bent one sounded, but those of us out in the audience definitely did not have the same reaction. If he had representative examples of each that day, perhaps there's some way they sound under the ear that doesn't reach out into the hall, because the comparison was pretty sad at 100 feet.
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new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[Chet Bishop]

Ray,

I really enjoyed hearing you play, for what it is worth, coming from someone who is not NEARLY as good a player as you are.

Chet
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Chet Bishop
https://bluefiddles.com
https://fivestringfiddles.com

[ctviolin]

[viola_license_revoked]

[Dave Chandler]

I'm curious where you got the "f" hole design, its very attractive in my opinion.


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Southern Violin Association

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[Mat Roop]

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