Violin Forum/Message Board

[ollieken]

Now spudchucker. Don't get all ticked off all the posters are just trying to help you.
after all you did ask for help & some idea of what you had ( right .)
Now if I had a fiddle that I liked the sound of & played as nice as you say
this jem plays I would not care if it looked like a bucket of S..t I would not fool with it .
I can tell you that their is a lot of fiddle`s that look nice & they sound like ....& you don't want to play them So like the old saying goes
if you have a silk purse don't try & make a sows ear out of it

Any how when you get it done up & you are happy with it as you are now post a pic & surprise us all Good luck with your project
Ken

[Spudchucker]

Thanks Ken

I'm gonna disappear for a while.. will return with pictures for the curious after however long it takes before I'm satisfied with my varnishing ability. Cheers!

[kjb]

I don't think it is TYPE ,
but in a public forum you have to expect people to say what they believe
just as you are entitled to say what you want, I think that is the basis of what we are doing here, sharing information.

[Scott S]

Don't disappear, Let's get this fiddle working. I'd say that the time to glue that glue joint is now, before any varnish or further work that may contaminate the joint. Also, while you still have it strung up, it would be a good time to evaluate some of the setup. Is the fingerboard projection good, allowing a nice sized bridge and string angle? Measure the G string distance to the fingerboard at the bridge end of the fingerboard (Goal, around 5mm). Measure the E string to fingerboard in a similar way (goal, around 3.5mm). Does the bridge feet fit well to the violin top? String grooves in bridge and nut? Distance of strings from fingerboard at nut? These things should be generalised now. Your strings are attached to the tailpiece in an old and strange way.

Varnish...............I'm not sure. Violin varnish is usually in two parts, ground and varnish. DeWaxed Shellac (from a can )in a very thin coat is used for a ground by some. I'm not sure how this can be done without a completely bare instrument . What I know about varnish is.......Oil.

Scott
_________________
As always, send lawyers, guns, and money

[Spudchucker]

KJB- Quite true, I just naturally try to gravitate away from conflict, so I didn't want to choppy-up the waters too much!


Scott- Thanks a lot for the run down Here's what I have according to what you asked

-G string to fingerboard is around 6.5mm if not including string width
-E string to fingerboard is 6mm not including string width

-The fingerboard is a fair bit closer to the violin top on the E string side than the G string side (8.5mm and 11.5mm respectively at the bridge-end of the fingerboard)

Going by online pictures as a reference, it seems like this bridge is slightly flatter than most concert violin bridges, though it still has more curvature than the one on the student violin I was borrowing (which was practically impossible to play midway up the fingerboard without hitting multiple strings) It seats pretty-well on the violin top, though there is a tiny hair of a gap on one side, even after trying to straighten it out. I tend to see flaws in details where they aren't quite necessary to point out though, so it could just be as simple as the top being an uneven surface.

Also, the old E string had no protective sleeve for the bridge, so there's about a 1-2mm notch cut into it from use

And on the subject of strings and the bridge, I've installed fine-tuners and some new Dominant strings for G, D, and A, and a new Pirastro Gold E string. Here's an up-close shot of the current configuration






Something else I'm curious about- Over the course of the day, the violin will go from being in-tune to well into the red area on my electronic tuning tool (either flat or sharp for the 3 Dominant strings, with the Pirastro E string not changing too much, though this could have something to do with it being the last string tuned.) Is it normal for an old violin to change it's size so much in such short periods of time? If this means I need a humidifier and a designated room to play in, I'd be willing to take the step (though I'll miss my favorite playing spot by the wood stove )



I'm happy to hear that shellac is a proper ground to use, since I am both familiar with it, and the violin's current finish more or less looks like dirtied-up shellac. If I can do a thin shellac ground followed by a slightly-darker varnish, buffed out to look consistent with the rest of the instrument, it might just end up looking old and original from a few feet away. Even if it takes a lot of patience and there's a mistake or two to overcome, I feel like it should be a possibility.


Thanks again for helping! For better or worse, I am with this to the end and I want the best possible results

[Scott S]

Great pictures for showing what is going on. A couple of pots of water on your stove will improve your humidity and a humidifier would be better. Your perlon strings will keep stretching for a while and then settle in. Fine tuners are great for beginners but you may want to nix 2 or three of them later and keep the A and E, or just the E. That plastic sleeve on the E is insulating your string from the bridge, go bareback, or, I superglue a 1/4" circle of goat vellum parchment over the bridge there for the E. Your bridge is in a better place now, in relation to the soundpost and ff hole notches, than it was in your first pictures.

Your neck may have lost some of its angle, but I've seen worse. You should rework the top of your bridge, this is how I would do it. Set a pencil compass to a radius of 42mm (84mm diameter) draw this circle onto a piece of paper or a plastic lid for cottage cheese or sour cream, cut out this circle, it will be your "bridge radius template". On the convexed side of your bridge, place a mark straight down from your G string 2mm. Now place a mark 2.5mm straight down from your E string. Place your "bridge radius template" on those two marks and draw that bridge radius. Look at the line from the E string to the edge of the bridge, it looks like the string will fall off the bridge, raise the line some from the string to the edge so that it still looks like a constant radius. Cut the top of the bridge to that line. You can do this with a knife, sandpaper on a flat surface or, I use a disc sander. Reshape the convexed side of the bridge, this may be hard for me to explain, but here goes. The width at the feet and lower 1/3 of the bridge is about 4.3mm. The width at the top of the bridge should be about 1.1-1.3mm. The convexed shape is between the top and lower 1/3 part of the bridge. I do all of this shaping with 80 grit paper on a flat surface while moving the bridge over the paper, I then clean up with finer paper.

String spacing - Set some dividers or a pencil compass to 35mm. Mark the E and G strings with this measurement while keeping the marks equal distance from the edges of the bridge. Notice that the slope at the E side gives an optical illusion of where that equal distance is. Favor towards the G side, just a little. With your E and G string marked, now set the dividers or compass so that you can walk it across the top of the bridge to make marks for the other two strings and also land exactly at the last mark. When you have your four marks for strings make a knife dent at these marks, JUST A VERY SLIGHT DENT or v shaped file mark.

Hold off on this, let's see what others think of my method. I might learn something too. They won't like the sandpaper, but ........This should put your G string at about 5.5mm above FB and your E at about 4.5mm above FB. The perlon strings need more circle to vibrate than steel strings, this will work for both.


This is a classical radius, most of my fiddlers like this radius too, unless they constantly play three strings. insert emoticon here

Scott
_________________
As always, send lawyers, guns, and money

[Spudchucker]

That was explained very well Scott, thanks for writing it all out! Interesting that the plastic E string sleeve interferes with potential sound quality- Maybe that's why the E string sometimes seems less responsive than the others (sleeve+small gouge cut into the bridge on the E string groove causing something to not quite sit right?)

I'm gonna wait on this for a day like you mentioned to see if there is anything else someone wishes to add, then with a greenlight given for Sunday I'll reshape the bridge how you described (with photos along the way.) While I'm at it and the strings are all loose, should I give the top a thin coat of de-waxed shellac as a ground, and something to protect it in general while I read up on varnishing and take care of other adjustments and quick fixes?

Also, out of curiosity, what would cause me to stop liking the fine tuners as I improve? They seem so convenient right now! Something to do with sound quality or playability?

[kjb]

if you pegs are working well, you don't have to have them. I use a wittner synthetic with built in fine tuners, mostly because I like to sit in with other people, but now a days most people have digital tuners so it is not so much of a problem.

[Spudchucker]

That makes sense KJB, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens when I'm a bit more proficient



Got the bridge done today, and it is a lot easier to play now! There was always a bit of a cut-off between notes before with the taller bridge, now the transitions feel a lot smoother. I still have to get used to the difference, but it's very obviously an improvement already


This is after sanding to the new dimensions (with a 42mm radius and 1.2mm thickness at the top)




Notches made with a small file




Graphite added to help the strings slide more easily




Back where it belongs!





Up next... I'm open to whatever you guys think would be best if anything sticks out in the pictures, and if not, I'm ordering some hot hide glue soon for that corner that is coming apart (where the extra chin rest was being used as a temporary clamp) so that may be the next move

[Scott S]

Yeah, that bridge is in the ballpark now. There's not too many times that a bridge can be re-used like that. Your A and E string notches may be too deep. If you were fitting a new bridge from scratch, the process and goals would be the same except for fitting the bridge feet to the table first.

I would have taken more wood from the center and center edges of the convex side, but, this is a frankenstein and it might like a thicker bridge.

Your neck angle is slightly low, which causes a shorter, more squat, bridge and different angle of the strings as they bend over the bridge. But this is all, still, serviceable and not terribly bad.

Scott
_________________
As always, send lawyers, guns, and money

[Spudchucker]

Ballpark works for me with this bridge until I know a bit more and get another pleasant surprise with an even better one- It really is a lot easier playing now than it was before, so I don't yet know what I'm missing

I didn't do anything to reinforce the E string notch, so would doing that be a good idea as a way to make the notch more shallow again? I'll have to keep in mind how much the strings sink into the wood under tension the next time I do this. Oh and if I do reinforce the E notch, is there anything in a standard household that I could use instead of vellum (which I don't have on hand) with similar results?

Also, what is the difference between playing with a fatter bridge and a thinner bridge? I may just experiment in the future if there's a noticeable change in tone after tweaking the bridge

[Scott S]

Check your PM.

Some use superglue to fill at the nut and to strengthen the bridge notch, never worked for me. If the string fits deep in the notch, lightly sand or file the top again till its not too deep. Parchment and vellum are names used for a wide variety of different materials, most won't work.

Scott
_________________
As always, send lawyers, guns, and money

[kjb]

you may already have this.

http://www.geigenbauonline.com/violinmaking-repairs-violinrepair-The-Bridge.html

[Franciscus]

During all this surgery described before, what happened with the soundpost? Is there soundpost at all? Beside, the south side of the bridge should not be convexed - It should be flat and perpendicular to the top.

[kjb]