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whatwasithinking
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Location: Washington State
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 Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:18 am Post subject: Is this damage repairable? |
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I just acquired a French cello that was mistreated by an overly-ambitious owner in the past, who evidently intended to refinish the instrument. S/he removed the finish on the top plate, and near the edges, outside the purfling, sanded it flat. There's a ridge left on perhaps half of the front plate, but the rest of it just stays flat beyond the purfling, with a sharp edge.
Is this even repairable? Should I just refinish it, and be happy if it still produces a decent sound? Or is it possible to use filler or something to build up the edges a bit? Adding a thin, shaped spruce veneer at the edges seems like it would be very difficult, and probably very visible.
Bob |
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FiddleDoug
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:33 am Post subject: |
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It probably could be restored, at a cost of several thousand dollars. Hope you didn't pay too much for it, because the klutz that did that to it pretty much destroyed the value. Trying to fill with wood filler would be really bad, and would look terrible. The proper way to do it would be to replace the edges, from the purfling out, with a new, underlayed edge. all that new work would have to be properly shaped, and retouched to match the instrument. I suppose that a creative luthier might be able to add a layer of spruce to the top, and reshape it (depends on the actual case). Adding spruce to the top would be more than just a veneer. It would have to be about 5mm thick to prevent warping during gluing. Any of this would be a job for a skilled luthier.
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ctviolin
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Location: Roswell
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Is this damage repairable? |
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| whatwasithinking wrote: |
Is this even repairable? Should I just refinish it, and be happy if it still produces a decent sound? Or is it possible to use filler or something to build up the edges a bit? Adding a thin, shaped spruce veneer at the edges seems like it would be very difficult, and probably very visible.
Bob |
I'd teng to agree with fiddleDoug here. Of course, it could be repaired - mostly anything could be repaired. But if this is a non-descript, general quality, student fiddle (cello) - the repair would most likely be far beyond the value of the cello. Refinish it and put it back into circulation as is. That would be my general action also.
Unless it was an older, more valuable piece, where the value of the piece would dictate making it a shop project.
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Last edited by ctviolin on Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:14 am; edited 3 times in total |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Is this damage repairable? |
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Very often, amateur "repairs" are worse than no repairs..
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whatwasithinking
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the helpful responses. I'd expected that a really restorative repair was beyond my skills, but I didn't want to press ahead and then learn that I'd not considered doing something better.
I'm guessing this is a 1920s or '30s shop-made instrument, and it's a 3/4 size. I don't see too many French 3/4 cellos at all, so this seemed like it might be worth getting back into playing condition. It also happens to be the appropriate size for my daughter, and she doesn't really care if it's got appearance issues. Still, I'd like to do this as correctly as feasible. |
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whatwasithinking
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Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: Is this damage repairable? |
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| ctviolin wrote: | | Refinish it and put it back into circulation as is. That would be my general action also. |
Craig,
What's your current preference for a ground and varnish for refinishing, when you might want to match it with the old finish, which is probably oil-based?
Bob |
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FiddleDoug
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| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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"What's your current preference for a ground and varnish for refinishing, when you might want to match it with the old finish, which is probably oil-based?"
Almost all retouching is done with spirit based varnishes. Retouching is an art in itself, and no on can specifically recommend a color, or mix of colors that will work with your instrument. A skilled luthier will mix colors, and compare tests with the color of the instrument. He/she will also work in layers, to allow for subtle adjustments in color as the process goes on.
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whatwasithinking
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| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'm afraid that this instrument isn't going to end up on the bench of a highly-skilled luthier. It's on my bench, and it's a learning tool, which I hope will also end up being a useful instrument. The price was, well, pretty reasonable.
I've read that spirit varnish is the preferred retouching method, but this is way beyond retouching. The front plate is virtually devoid of finish. The ribs retain the original finish, which isn't bad. The back has a nasty vertical streak, about 3 inches wide, where the finish has been stripped. I'd like to make the front correspond to the sides as much as possible. Still thinking about what to do with the back. |
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Cliff Green
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Since the top has been stripped and the back partially stripped, why not strip the rest of the cello and refinish. Not something I would normally do, but in this case the damage has already been done and a fresh finish will look a lot better than a cobbled repair especially since you don't have retouch skills. |
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whatwasithinking
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Sounds like a very good idea at this point. I've been reading Michael Darnton's paper on varnishing, and I think I'll follow his guidelines. I know that still leaves room for some choices, though. I think I overheard him suggesting to a new maker that they use shellac on their first violin, and not just as a ground. How about a shellac ground and oil top coat? |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| whatwasithinking wrote: | I'm afraid that this instrument isn't going to end up on the bench of a highly-skilled luthier. It's on my bench, and it's a learning tool, which I hope will also end up being a useful instrument. The price was, well, pretty reasonable.
I've read that spirit varnish is the preferred retouching method, but this is way beyond retouching. The front plate is virtually devoid of finish. The ribs retain the original finish, which isn't bad. The back has a nasty vertical streak, about 3 inches wide, where the finish has been stripped. I'd like to make the front correspond to the sides as much as possible. Still thinking about what to do with the back. |
In this case, I believe I would most likely either refinish the whole thing, as Cliff here suggests, or simply go ahead and re varnish it as is.
Does it look like the varnish was removed by a stripper, thus far?
In any case this will not require the use of a touch up varnish, (in my opinion) because this isn't a "touch up" when it's this far stripped - this it is a re-varnish job. (even if it's half done)- So, I'd say; any varnish will probably be as good as any other varnish, oil or spirit, it depends on which one you're most comfortable with.
If the varnish looks like it was removed up till now with a stripper, I'd go ahead and finish removing (at least on the half done back plate) it with a chemical stripper. I don't know which one to recommend, since stripping isn't something I'd do myself these days in any case, but you might just be stuck having to do it here, to make this thing playable and visually acceptable.
I don't believe it really matters much anyway. If the ribs truly are still varnished well, and still look good - with the original varnish, then I would probably match the new varnish for the plates to the ribs the best I could. At this point it probably doesn't matter much if the top and back are a perfect match to the ribs or not.
The only thing I would have to decide if I'm picturing this repair correctly, is whether or not I wanted to strip the ribs also. And if they had damage resulting from the stripping of the top and back plate, I believe I'd strip them along with the varnish on the back plate, also.
If they haven't touched the neck or scroll - then I would probably just leave them alone - most likely no one will ever notice that they don't exactly match.
I believe that if you are used to finishing wood projects, this will probably be just another wood working project. If you're not familiar with various wood finishing techniques, then you're in for a learning experience.
I would not stain anything, but perhaps a darker finish (base coat) like an amber shellac as a base coat under a colored spirit or oil varnish... I use flakes in order to avoid the wax that will be in a canned shellac, but others have said that the canned stuff from Bullseye brand works well also. (??)
The final surface will most likely require a rub down with either micro mesh (or something similar) or a particular grit finish, or finishes depending on what type of gloss you like. Perhaps starting with pumice and finishing with a finer grit...
Please, if you can, post some photos of this project. This is the type of thing that can prove to be very interesting to watch...
If your question hasn't been answered yet, please ask for more exacting information. Finishing or refinishing is an involved project. But it is one you should feel comfortable doing, as it isn't beyond most peoples ability. The thing that stops most people from doing it, at least quickly or efficiently, is the fact that perhaps it is something that they've never really had the opportunity to do yet.
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whatwasithinking
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Craig. I'm beginning to see a way ahead. The finish on the ribs looks pretty good. I think I'll leave it as is.
But whatever the original finish is--nitrocellulose?--it seems almost immune to alcohol, acetone, lacquer thinner and Citrustrip. I guess that's why someone sanded the top. I just hope they didn't thin it down too much. There are remnants of the original finish here and there, so I might be okay. I believe guitar makers use acetone to strip nitro, but this stuff is pretty resistant to everything I've tried so far. Looks like considerable elbow grease will be needed. Any suggestions? |
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whatwasithinking
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Some photos |
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| whatwasithinking wrote: | Laugh or cry, but here are some pics:
Still working on stripping. Leaving the ribs as-is. |
Ouch!
Still, it is a straight forward job for whoever got this cello (you in other words) - of stripping and refinishing...
they didn't leave you much choice, since that is obviously what they had in mind.
Good luck with this project, and please, if you can and if you feel like it, show what the outcome is...
Thanks!
ct
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Mat Roop
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Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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looks like a fun project... enjoy!
Cheers, Mat |
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