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John Masters
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Joined: 13 Mar 2013
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 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | Everyone else is stuck on the problem of "warmer"; I'm still back at "make them sound like something I want to hear". |
Ha ! Me too. I have, at this point, made only one CNC violin, and it had mistakes. I wanted to compare it to the Chinese whites, but just about the time I started back to making after a 5-year hiatus, I stopped playing or practicing.
I belong to the school that open and responsive is good, and let the violin be played in. How do you feel about this? I have played quite a few Becker violins and have my opinions about how much control we have over timbre and "warmth." |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Carbon Fiber Violins |
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| Fgayford wrote: | | Mat Roop wrote: | | Fgayford wrote: | ...I wonder how the warmyh could be introducted into the construction of a carbon instrument?
Fred |
Ha ha easy... replace the carbon fiber with tonewood!
Seriously though... If you are trying to replicate the sound of a wood instrument, why change the material? I realize carbon fiber might have its advantages for mass production, but then they will all be the same with no color or character.
... sort of like if all men were made exactly alike, they would all be after my bride!
Cheers!... Mat |
Carbon has a number of advantages over wood really. More powerful voice, not affected by temperature or humidity. They are much stronger and cannot warp or twist. But! even though they can sound pretty good, they lack the warmth that wood has, therefore they do not sound great in my opinion. A carbon fiber violin has to be hand made and takes a lot of time to produce all though it takes alot less time than a wooden instrument. I just thought someone might have a clever suggestion on what might add warmth to the carbon instruments.
Thanks
Fred |
Well...,
I'm going to guess here that carbon's advantages MAY well be an important quality for (inexpensive) violins that are yet more of an attractive alternative to the cheap wooden ones that fall apart and are so very miserably trouble ridden.
I am guessing that the tone *problems* may simply be problems dealing with obvious things like plate construction/thickness - rib and frame construction - (and maybe even particular strings...) etc.
Since we're not dealing with wooden radiating plates - the sound radiation characteristics (overall) will likely be entirely different and require some different fundamentals.
So - dealing with them or it, as if it was wood, might be dealing with it from an entirely wrong perspective. Some creative thinking may be in order here, I believe, .
Creative, but not impossible - I would imagine. (in particular, for someone who might want to develop a product that could well take over the low end (but large number of) string instrument market.)
If only I was twenty years old again, and loaded with much free time and all that excess energy..., I'm guessing that this would be an interesting challenge...
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone here ever experimented with carbon fiber for violin construction, first-hand?
I do believe that it has made significant inroads into the bow industry.
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Fgayford
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| ctviolin wrote: | Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone here ever experimented with carbon fiber for violin construction, first-hand?
I do believe that it has made significant inroads into the bow industry. |
I have made an exact copy of a 1701 Strad in carbon fiber including the scrowl. It turned out lighter than a wooden violin and has a louder voice.
I had a professional who has worked on many genuine Stads, set up the sound post, bridge, nut, and pegs. He said that the violin was not shrill (which was what I worried about) but had a very dark sound and good bass. His comments were that it sounded good but lacked the warmth that a proffessional would want if playing in an orchestra. But for rock or stomping hillbilly music it would be perfect for that. The violin was easy to play, quick in its response, no wolf notes and very percise. I believe this violin sounds comparable to other carbon fiber violins in the market place right now.
My concentration will now be persuing the warmth lacking in all of the carbon instruments I have heard. I have almost completed my second carbon violin with a number of changes I hope will warm things up in sound quality.
Fred |
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jacobyfineviolins
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Location: Omaha, NE
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Can the carbon fiber be layerd with hardwood, and maintain the properties that are desirable?
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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That's the concept of Ovation's Adamas guitar, I think. Unfortunately I haven't played one. I did play Joe Curtin's wood/foam/wood viola, and thought the sound of foam was the predominant one.
But doesn't using wood sort of defeat the concept, which I gather is to make an instrument without wood?
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Fgayford
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | That's the concept of Ovation's Adamas guitar, I think. Unfortunately I haven't played one. I did play Joe Curtin's wood/foam/wood viola, and thought the sound of foam was the predominant one.
But doesn't using wood sort of defeat the concept, which I gather is to make an instrument without wood? |
Yes I agree. I would like to stay away from wood completely and just stay with space aged materials that are not affected by temperature and moisture.
Fred |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Fgayford wrote: | | Michael Darnton wrote: | That's the concept of Ovation's Adamas guitar, I think. Unfortunately I haven't played one. I did play Joe Curtin's wood/foam/wood viola, and thought the sound of foam was the predominant one.
But doesn't using wood sort of defeat the concept, which I gather is to make an instrument without wood? |
Yes I agree. I would like to stay away from wood completely and just stay with space aged materials that are not affected by temperature and moisture.
Fred |
I agree also.
The idea that anyone is trying to "copy" wood, is a misunderstanding, I believe, of what is being striven for in this arena generally.
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Fgayford wrote: | Yes I agree. I would like to stay away from wood completely and just stay with space aged materials that are not affected by temperature and moisture.
Fred |
Then I would make the obvious statement: if you make a violin out of plastic instead of wood, guess what: it's going to sound like plastic, instead of wood. Over the last 500 years of violin making, not only have alternate materials such as plastics not shown any positive results, neither have alternate species of wood, even. Tops are still spruce, backs and sides maple, because those are the only woods that players have consistently accepted as having the tonal qualities they want in a violin.
You can bark up that tree all you want, but a whole lot of history has demonstrated that it's got to be a tree, and the right one, too.
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R Mac
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure that Michael is right, and that duplicating the acoustic nuances of the very finest violins will not be possible in graphite.
On the other hand, if graphite can be used to make a dependable, reproducible "second rate" violin that is impervious to humidity changes, this is still a laudable and excellent goal.
Almost none of us will ever play a "first rate" instrument, and most will never own a "second rate" one. The vast majority of players are satisfied with (or at least resigned to playing) third or fourth rate fiddles.
To recognize perfection is important. To strive toward it and occasionally approach it is a beautiful thing. But, it would be a mistake to let perfection be the enemy of "pretty damn good".
I look forward to seeing the folks who are working with graphite push it as far as they can. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
Mac |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| R Mac wrote: |
Almost none of us will ever play a "first rate" instrument, and most will never own a "second rate" one. The vast majority of players are satisfied with (or at least resigned to playing) third or fourth rate fiddles.
To recognize perfection is important. To strive toward it and occasionally approach it is a beautiful thing. But, it would be a mistake to let perfection be the enemy of "pretty damn good".
Mac |
Well, I must agree here with the gist of what you're saying.
Still, even wooden violins of the past were made by individuals using whatever techniques that they used, and which EXACT techniques may simply no longer exist as such, or, perhaps were simply lost or hidden somewhere along the way. (?)
True - not true? Partly true? Ahh, who really cares, in the final analysis, what does it matter? What difference does it make? Then was then, and now is now.
And we're alive now. (if we're lucky - that is)
For realities sake - in this post - I'll rule out "magic" as an operative factor, as, even though the EXACT methodology used then, may well be gone, for whatever reason(s), apparently not to reappear any time soon...
... violins (made today) of whatever wood, by whoever, where ever, seem perhaps to be lacking in much or some of the "grace" and/or intrinsic GRAND tonal value, often attributed to those long gone makers and their techniques/instruments.
Which only makes me consider that the modern immersion into materials - ones that did not even exist as an idea not long ago, may well lead to violins with another (yet - equally acceptable) tone.
I believe that the idea is a valid idea, even if the product has not been introduced yet. As valid perhaps, as the idea that three hundred years ago a technology was standardized for violin construction - that we cannot really (or easily) duplicate today.
Who knows? We'll see.
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Fgayford
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| Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | Fgayford wrote: | Yes I agree. I would like to stay away from wood completely and just stay with space aged materials that are not affected by temperature and moisture.
Fred |
Then I would make the obvious statement: if you make a violin out of plastic instead of wood, guess what: it's going to sound like plastic, instead of wood. Over the last 500 years of violin making, not only have alternate materials such as plastics not shown any positive results, neither have alternate species of wood, even. Tops are still spruce, backs and sides maple, because those are the only woods that players have consistently accepted as having the tonal qualities they want in a violin.
You can bark up that tree all you want, but a whole lot of history has demonstrated that it's got to be a tree, and the right one, too. |
I appreciate your comments but do not agree with plastic sounds like plastic. The best speakers capable of reproducing any note clearly and accurately have speaker cones made of carbon fiber. Being the strongest material known to man it can be made with very little mass. Therefore little delay to movement in pushing the air.
If you could connect a voice coil to a violin body and use it as the driver it would sound quite poor I am sure. But! It has a beautifull color in the sound by the deadening and filtering I suspect by the very nature of being wood. I believe that if a carbon fiber speaker can reproduce the music played on a Strad accurately I am sure carbon can be made to manufacture the same sound. (or at least close)
I have a wood violin that only cost about $800.00 which I have played for about 6 months. I have now switched to my carbon violin for the past 2 weeks. On picking up the wood violin and trying it again, one thing is for certain. There is no comparison. The carbon sounds way better and i would never go back to it. Now, true this is only my opinion and who am I to be a critic. But I know what I like. I have made changes to my second carbon violin which I hope is in the right direction of adding warmth. I won't know until it has been set up and tested. My goal is to produce at least an entry level professional violin. Hopefully by my 5th I will be going in the right direction.
Fred |
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Canuck
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 1:16 am Post subject: |
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There is quite a variety of opinions of carbon fibre vs. traditional instruments on You Tube. But I must say that simply producing a violin out of wood does not guarantee the best of sound. The skill of the luthier, the quality of the material, the strings, the bow, and the musician playing the instrument all are factors in the resultant sound. I have three traditional wooden instruments. I have different feelings to the sound of each of them. Each one has its place in what I do, musically. But there is only one that I am really in love with. And I suppose if one spent time comparing carbon fibre violin to carbon fibre violin, rather than carbon fibre to traditional violin, one might find a carbon fibre instrument that appealed more than other similar instruments.
I have read many posts in this message board by many musicians whose skills are far and away greater than mine. And it seems that the sound they strive for can not be attributed solely to what the instrument might be made of. The right instrument for an individual is an entirely personal matter, in my view.
In short, I reserve opinion on these instruments until I have the opportunity to try several. And that opportunity might just be coming, soon! |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Canuck wrote: |
In short, I reserve opinion on these instruments until I have the opportunity to try several. And that opportunity might just be coming, soon!
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Amen.
After all, who could form a valid opinion - about anything? with out firsthand experience on the subject.
I'd love to hear your opinions on the subject, after you do get a chance to play some.
ct
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Fgayford
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ctviolin wrote: | | Canuck wrote: |
In short, I reserve opinion on these instruments until I have the opportunity to try several. And that opportunity might just be coming, soon!
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Amen.
After all, who could form a valid opinion - about anything? with out firsthand experience on the subject.
I'd love to hear your opinions on the subject, after you do get a chance to play some.
ct |
Well said and fair. You can find a lot of carbon fiber violins being played on you tube. I have yet to see someone say they didn't like them.
But I think there is lots of room for improvement.
Fred |
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