Violin Forum/Message Board

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

Golden period instruments seem to have large variations in plate thickness... and still sound marvelous.

Because wood densities differ, I wonder if any work has been done to examine any correlation between plate thicknesses and weight. In other words, did the Masters work denser wood thinner until they hit a target weight? Are the plates that differ in thickness the same weight?

I'm sure this has been studied but I'm not aware of it.

Michael Darnton · Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:09 am Post subject:

Speaking only of Strads and del Gesus, the lightest I've weighed (set up, no chinrest) was 360 grams, the heaviest 420. That's a little more than 2 ounce difference! I used to think weight mattered, but I think that less now.
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violinarius · Member Joined: 14 Dec 2007 Posts: 171

If wood was a uniform substance, then this approach would have been found long ago.

You might find this link to Nigel Harris interesting.

http://www.violin.uk.com/research.htm

I think there is no magic bullet in numbers, but as a guide they are fine.

I also don't think the Masters were trying to duplicate their work, but rather the exact opposite. They seem to be exploring, while we seem to be trapped trying to duplicate them.
So the appeal to modern day makers in trying to duplicate, is that duplicating numbers will do the trick.
If you are interested in Tonal Copying then Martin Schleske has gone down this route.

http://www.schleske.de/en/our-research/introduction-violin-acoustics.html

MANFIO · Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:18 pm Post subject:

I take notes of the top and back, including weight (prior and after graduation) and tap tones. Also of the top with and without the bar.

The idea is that if I use the same archings, wood, weights and tap tones it will be easier to reproduce good results.
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kubasa · Member Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Posts: 212

Luis, I thought I was the only one who did that. Nice to hear that I'm not alone in recording this information. I'm not doing it to be able to reproduce anything but maybe more to remember what I did, what wood I used, etc and how satisfied I was with the results.

James

Oded Kishony · Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:10 pm Post subject:

Paul Cormier · Junior Member Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Posts: 12

H.S. Wake talks about weights in his book, which has been very helpful to me. Interestingly , the weights correspond to the tap tones. Denser wood has to be worked thinner.

Michael Darnton · Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:27 pm Post subject:

I prefer to think of it that denser wood can be worked thinner. There are plenty of great very heavy violins out there.
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actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

So if heavy can be good, and light can be good, and everything in between... and graduation precision doesn't much matter...is it "all" mostly in the archings?

Michael Darnton · Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:08 pm Post subject:

Well . . . . a violin isn't just archings and thick vs thin. . . . There's what arching, and where thick vs where thin, for instance.
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jacobyfineviolins · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 55 Location: Omaha, NE

Michael Darnton · Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:23 pm Post subject:

My current faith, after quite a lot of experimental regraduation is that no amount of skillful graduation can compensate for bad arching and that the effects of geometry overpower those of material strength. But graduation can change characteristics within the potential of the arching, if that makes sense, and also that it's possible to make serious mistakes in grads and mess up something that could otherwise have been much better.

My own violins only got better in definite ways that other people noticed when I really started to concentrate on arching and using grads as a finer adjustment. When regraduating instruments it's pretty easy to predict how they'll turn out from the arching, in ways that regraduation can't correct. I learned that from Bob Bein, who could reliably predict how an instrument should sound when properly set up just by looking at it in a dilapidated state.
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jacobyfineviolins · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 55 Location: Omaha, NE

Now that is a skill for this industry!
I am happy to hear you champion arching as the first step, Mr. Darnton. I've started taking much more care with my back arch especially, the last dozen or so instruments.
I've found the shape of the cross arch through the c bout, and where the high point of the long arch sits to be really important. And that it differs from violin to viola to cello, what is desirable for an even, centered sound.
I will have to chew on how my graduation adjustments after these fundamentals are in place help or hinder, probably for the rest of my life.
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kjb · Super Member Joined: 06 Feb 2013 Posts: 385

thanks very helpful info.
As far as arching goes, If I remember correctly you started out with strad archings and then developed your own from those examples .

How would you suggest a novice start that procedure. Is there a certain arching system that del gesu and strad used on certain instruments that I could use as a guide, such as the plowden?

or is it more of a make a lot of vso's and you will figure it out?

I know its probably a hard question to answer but if you have some guidance on it, I would rather make something that has a shot at sounding good than one that is not going to go anywhere. thanks kevin

jacobyfineviolins · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 55 Location: Omaha, NE

kjb, there are arching shapes drawn out on most of the Strad posters. I made templates to lay over my arches, when I was starting out.
Noticing the differences between Strad and Guarneri and Amati arches will give you a start on the tools you'll need to think about arching and sound.
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