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actonern
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Michael Darnton
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:39 am Post subject: |
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I have been fascinated by the fact that while Stradivari used well aged wood, del Gesu appears to have used wood that was only three to five years out of the tree and it doesn't seem to have hurt his reputation. . . an interesting thing in view of the modern idea that fresh wood is absolutely a bad thing.
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | I have been fascinated by the fact that while Stradivari used well aged wood, del Gesu appears to have used wood that was only three to five years out of the tree and it doesn't seem to have hurt his reputation. . . an interesting thing in view of the modern idea that fresh wood is absolutely a bad thing. |
One interesting thing about violin making, is that if you delve into all of the different aspects of it, there is a quite large area of "tradition" that has taken on almost mystic (perhaps habitual is a better word here?) aspects.
One area like this, has to do with the wood (I believe) and the requirements of the various woods used, and the assumption of what result can be expected BECAUSE of the specific wood used.
In particular- of the wood species chosen, and/or the location of growth or origin.
Personally, I choose to use domestic woods (wood from North America) because of the idea that the early Italians simply used what wood was available to THEM and that the special ingredient (If you want to put it that way) was the talent to figure out how to use the specific wood that was available for the task at hand.
Then, in my opinion, (opinion, because I am guessing about this point) the wood they used IS perfect for making (traditional) violins now - but it is not necessary for making a successful violin.
It may not be the wood as much as the ability of the maker to tailor what wood is being used for the task at hand.
In competition - I believe - modern makers have an equal chance at making a profound quality of violin, out of whatever wood they choose to use. So, if there IS a secret, in my opinion, it's skill and acquired knowledge that changes the out come...
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kubasa
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ctviolin wrote: | | It may not be the wood as much as the ability of the maker to tailor what wood is being used for the task at hand. |
Well said! Having said that, I should probably still be using wood from the lumbar yard!  |
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Canuck
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I have noticed that a lot of the modern violins I see seem to show very wide growth rings in the wood, resulting in what appears to me to yield a violin with a finish that would be hard to finish to a high degree. Almost as if the wood was selected out of the outer growth rings of a large tree that was growing very rapidly. On the other hand, I see many violins that have a very smooth finish, bright, and the grain of the wood is hard to see. Does this relate to how the grain of the wood is oriented by the luthier, the type of wood chosen, the age of the tree, or the care taken in finishing the instrument. Pardon me if many of my questions seem inane, but I am really fascinated by what many of you folks achieve! |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Canuck wrote: | | I have noticed that a lot of the modern violins I see seem to show very wide growth rings in the wood, resulting in what appears to me to yield a violin with a finish that would be hard to finish to a high degree. Almost as if the wood was selected out of the outer growth rings of a large tree that was growing very rapidly. On the other hand, I see many violins that have a very smooth finish, bright, and the grain of the wood is hard to see. Does this relate to how the grain of the wood is oriented by the luthier, the type of wood chosen, the age of the tree, or the care taken in finishing the instrument. Pardon me if many of my questions seem inane, but I am really fascinated by what many of you folks achieve! |
I will answer that all these things you mention are taken into account when choosing whatever species of wood is chosen.
In particular,
Most luthiers will choose wood that is always "'quarter sawn" wood, where the grain is both straight down the front of the top plate and straight through the piece, if you look at the leading or trailing edge of the plate you should see the grain lines going straight from the top of the plate to the bottom of the plate. or, they can be slanted to: slightly off the quarter so that both halves of the plate have the grain lines slant and point ever so slightly towards or away from each other (do you see this?) - or even they may slant both in the same direction (but then, there could be problems with the reflectivity on the surface of the plate)
The wood is always aged to the degree that it is dry. Seems like this is not a critical point, huh? but the age of the wood, as a billet, or, the age of the tree, before billets were cut, is a critical point to many makers.
The type of wood (for the top) chosen, is almost always a type of pine, or spruce & less often a cedar or some other species (usually) with straight growth lines. In fact I have seen very many older handmade violins with just about anything used for a top and of course, they do work, just usually not as well as a pine or spruce.
Most professional violin makers I know, choose either close or medium grain spacing - its a thing that you look at when buying and can be a up to the working methods of the individual.
Age of the tree, is another thing that may or may not be looked at. Or the age of the wood when cut, as far as how long ago was the wood cut into billets, and how long has it been drying, as a separate piece, and what method was used in drying? Just air dried?, dried in a kiln, slight heat? whatever. Anything that the dealer mentions is either a "good" thing or not depending on who you speak with.
Many Of these type of things are looked at but there are several common decisions that can go either way, depending on the maker chosen, for example many people think that the age of the piece chosen is critical ( WOW! I've got a million year old piece of petrified wood I'm going to try!) and many makers will simply judge the wood by how dry is it now, in the present day, and what quality it is, grain spacing?, is it crack free,? etc.
I hope this answers your question, and I must agree - this is a fascinating
subject.
You, (when a luthier) will also learn about such qualities found in the cut piece as "run-out" which has much to do with quartering and grain (but oriented in the other direction - through the piece) - but which is easier to show than to describe, (I have seen an entire room full of luthires haggle over that one - tee hee!)
but "run out" is critical in choosing wood.
Please, ask away, I could yack forever about wood.
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Russell
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| You mentioned pine for a violin top , ive seen pine with very strait tight grain running up and down the piece of wood that would look great on a violin, I now know spruce is the norm for a top , why would strait as opposed a wavy grain grain be better? |
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Chet Bishop
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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A minor point, but perhaps it will help in the long run: The outer rings of a large tree are the finest (tightest) rings, not the broadest. As the tree gets bigger, the rings are closer and closer together, to the effect that the really big ones have rings so close they are difficult to count, because you can hardly see where one ends and the next begins.
Young trees (or near the center of a big one) will have broader rings as a rule. I have some trees that are only 40 years old, but in excess of 40" diameter at the base...they have huge rings, but they do get narrower toward the outside. (Definitely not tonewood, BTW.)
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mikemolnar
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think keeping a stock of wood for the future is very important. I have some in my attic and in the shop for several years. Granted I will use it before it can be called "old", namely over 30 years, but some of it is approaching that age. If you are still young, start accumulating. You won't regret it years from now.
Oh and try to select good wood. |
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pmccombs
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| mikemolnar wrote: | I think keeping a stock of wood for the future is very important. I have some in my attic and in the shop for several years. Granted I will use it before it can be called "old", namely over 30 years, but some of it is approaching that age. If you are still young, start accumulating. You won't regret it years from now.
Oh and try to select good wood. |
How is wood commonly "accumulated"? I need to start getting a good inventory. |
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Chet Bishop
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Ultimately, of course, yes, it grows on trees. But you can either harvest it yourself, if you live where that is a possibility, AND if you know what to look for and how to treat it once you find it...or you can buy it from those who do. There are tonewood dealers all over the world.
I have bought from four different dealers and usually try to purchase more than I currently need. the result is that I have a few sets "accumulated".
A few years ago a man who lived nearby offered me a huge maple log...it turned out to be heavily figured, so I paid to have it milled into usable pieces, coated the ends with anchorfast wood sealer, and it is sitting in my shop waiting to be used. I have only used one piece so far, and am looking forward to using the rest. Gotta buy more spruce...
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actonern
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james ansara
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Chet, I am wondering if you split the maple after sawing, to what dimensions you sawed it and how long you think it will need to season before use.
Thanks, James | Chet Bishop wrote: | Ultimately, of course, yes, it grows on trees. But you can either harvest it yourself, if you live where that is a possibility, AND if you know what to look for and how to treat it once you find it...or you can buy it from those who do. There are tonewood dealers all over the world.
I have bought from four different dealers and usually try to purchase more than I currently need. the result is that I have a few sets "accumulated".
A few years ago a man who lived nearby offered me a huge maple log...it turned out to be heavily figured, so I paid to have it milled into usable pieces, coated the ends with anchorfast wood sealer, and it is sitting in my shop waiting to be used. I have only used one piece so far, and am looking forward to using the rest. Gotta buy more spruce... |
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Chet Bishop
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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As it happened, I had recently had major surgery, and didn't have much strength, so I had to depend on others to do everything. I hired a man to cut it up with a Wood Mizer. He did not know how to do radial sawing, and I like one-piece backs, so ALL of it was cut into slabs, except for some small sections which I can cut up on my band saw at home.
Here is a one-piece cello back for the cello I am beginning.
http://www.bluefiddles.com/2013/01/beginning-a-new-cello/
The blocks are in the mold, but that is as far as I have gotten. Ribs are sawn, but not taken down to the correct thickness. Been kinda busy.
I have only made one instrument out of that wood, so far; a five-string fiddle:
http://www.bluefiddles.com/2012/08/annnd-im-back-with-a-new-fiddle/
So-- I have backs and sides for basses, celli, violas and violins, as well as some acoustic guitar billets for my son, who builds guitars.
The wood had been down for 1-1/2 years when I got it, and I had it sawn up pretty much immediately. It has endured two winters and two summers in my shop-- an un-insulated metal building that gets hot in the summer and cold in the winter. That slab for the cello is 1-1/2" thick, 17-3/8" wide, and 34" long, and it cupped about 1/4" in drying. It is light, and has a bell-like ring, so I am not hesitant about using it. I'm sure some folk would flip over it, but the old masters (dendrochronology tells us) sometimes used wood that was as recently cut as that.
I am too old to cavil at using wood that has dried two years and had been cut more than a year earlier. I'll give it a go-- if there are any problems I'll let you know. 
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kubasa
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Chet,
That cello back looks really nice! The cupping doesn't seem to be too bad considering how wide it is. I've had narrower wood cup almost that much. Hope to see some pictures of it on the finished cello someday.
James |
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