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actonern
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Joined: 15 Aug 2007
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:50 pm Post subject: F hole tabs |
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Looking at the animations of plate movement (available for viewing on various web sites, like this http://www.bormanviolins.com/animations.asp) it appears that the f-hole tabs are quite active at certain frequencies.
Does anyone have an opinion on whether its best to leave this area thicker or thinner?
Best regards,
E |
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DonLeister
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Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Posts: 383
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my take on it, along with a proper disclaimer, which is that I have no scientific basis for what I say.
I have seen those animations and know that a lot of pretty smart people have studied them. If I understand what people have said about them it is that the f wings do move a lot but are not really big sound radiators. They might have some pretty minor tone effects.
I tend to think of the wings as not unlike a dog's tail. A lot of visual effect but doesn't really affect what the dog does.
I try to look and see what Strad did, at least when I can can find good information that shows what he did, and do that. |
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Janito
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Posts: 114
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Put some Bluetak on the wings and play the violin.
Experiment and then report back what you find. |
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ctviolin
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Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:33 am Post subject: Re: F hole tabs |
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| actonern wrote: | Looking at the animations of plate movement (available for viewing on various web sites, like this http://www.bormanviolins.com/animations.asp) it appears that the f-hole tabs are quite active at certain frequencies.
Does anyone have an opinion on whether its best to leave this area thicker or thinner?
Best regards,
E |
I can only say what I do.
I look at them structurally. (As a natural part of the belly)
They are there. They need a particular thickness in order not to be a weak spot on the violin, prone to extremely easy breakage or splits.
And yet they need not be OVERLY thick either. I'm thinking that they simply need to be a structurally sound part of the belly. Personally, I don't consider them to be great INDEPENDANT sound producers in any case.
I do not believe that they act like tiny tweeters (or something like that) for certain frequencies.
Disagree? I'd like to hear it.
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Janito
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: F hole tabs |
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| ctviolin wrote: |
I do not believe that they act like tiny tweeters (or something like that) for certain frequencies. |
No need to speculate.
Please do the BluTack experiment and report back your findings. |
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ctviolin
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Posts: 961
Location: Roswell
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: F hole tabs |
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| Janito wrote: | | ctviolin wrote: |
I do not believe that they act like tiny tweeters (or something like that) for certain frequencies. |
No need to speculate.
Please do the BluTack experiment and report back your findings. |
Absolutely.
You'll hear from me soon on this. Hopefully later today. I don't have any BluTack, but will use sculpting clay, close enough??
ct
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mikemolnar
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, my limited research tends to support the idea that the wings act like a tweeter. The issue is to make them light but remain stiff.
Stay Tuned.
Mike |
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ctviolin
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Location: Roswell
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| mikemolnar wrote: | Actually, my limited research tends to support the idea that the wings act like a tweeter. The issue is to make them light but remain stiff.
Stay Tuned.
Mike |
Interesting.
I guess I'd really better listen then. This would be an interesting turn if I found at this stage that it were true.
I know that just about anything stuck anywhere on the belly, is going to have an acoustic effect, because the belly is so responsible for helping produce the tone (or noise) we hear. The difference to my idea of how it works, would be to consider that that specific part does have that specific function.
Not that the tone wouldn't change by some (any) degree, simply by adding mass to the ff hole wing(s).
That it would change only in this specific direction...
As I say, interesting idea.
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but is BluTack something I can find locally (like at WalMart) or the hardware store, or something I'd have to order?
Thanks
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Janito
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ctviolin wrote: | | Sorry, but is BluTack something I can find locally (like at WalMart) or the hardware store, |
Should be easy to find. In the US it is usually white:
Similar products of various colours are made by many manufacturers including:
"Tack-it" by Faber-Castell
"Pritt-Tack", "Poster Putty", "Tac 'N Stick", "Ticky Tack", "Sticky Tack", "Patafix" and "White Tack" by German company UHU
"Sticky Stuff" and "Fun-Tak" by Henkel brands Pritt, Loctite and LePage
"Poster Tack" and "Elmer's Tack" by Elmer's.
They are also sold under the generic names "adhesive putty" and "mounting putty".
The generic trademark or common name for mounting putty varies by region:
"Fun-Tak" in many parts of the US and Canada.
Prestik in South Africa
"Patafix" in France and Italy[citation needed].
"kennaratyggjó" (teacher's chewing gum) in Iceland
"elefantsnot" (elephant's snot) in Denmark
"Häftmassa" (attachment mass) in Sweden |
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mikemolnar
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DonLeister
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Posts: 383
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Modeling clay or plasticene works well too, in case you have some of that on hand. |
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ctviolin
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Location: Roswell
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Finding I had nothing - no clay even (grand kids, gotta love 'em) I am now using some Poster Tack - and having fun playing and having various friends listen as I shift this crap around...
Anyone else trying this?
I'll be back.
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I really want to hear other makers opinion s on this - I hope at least one other person is messing around.
I, since the description (suggestion) was left very open, am trying a decent (but the same) amount of mass on top and bottom wings and both wings up to all four wings...
It's going to take me a while of serious testing, before I come to a serious conclusion that will make a difference to me in my making or not.
I am testing six of my own violins that I still have around the shop - and one repair violin I have in at the moment...
Please anyone who is interested in this, or who has done it themselves - either say something, perhaps now, or wait till I post my opinion, and then post what you've found also.
Maybe I'm simply being silly, but with this type of thing, I really enjoy doing it (rather extensively) and not just thinking and talking about, that I ALREADY know what the answer to this is... (if you know what I mean)
I cannot remember doing this to my completed violins before - this (such results) will be new to me.
My Thanks.
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Janito
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ctviolin wrote: |
Please anyone who is interested in this, or who has done it.... |
I would not have made the remark if I had not tried it extensively some years ago (when I was also testing the effects of chinrests over and to the side of the tailpiece; and loose vs tight clamping).
From memory, I found that even small blobs on the tips of the wings reduced the high frequency components under the ear. I concluded this effect would not have come from a change in the rest of the body. I cannot remember whether there was a lower vs upper wing difference.
I did not do 'distant listener' tests, so i am interested in what you find.
ps - I have always been curious why GdG modified his F holes (and wings) so much over time. |
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