Violin Forum/Message Board

[Chris Knowlton]

I am beginning work on the scroll and I have a question. I’m using the Johnson/Courtnall book (Newark method). The book says to cut the heel end of the neck at 85 degrees. Every other book I have shows it to be cut at 83 degrees or 83.5 degrees. When the neck is installed in the body I assume that the angled end of the heel should be parallel to the ribs (mortised of course, but parallel). I assume that the neck is always set at the same angle but that the neck is raised or lowered to achieve the correct distance from the top plate. If this is true then one of the angles must be incorrect. Which angle is right?

Thanks,
Chris
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[Michael Darnton]

There are differing opinions on this. The Sacconi/Wurlitzer method is an 87 degree angle. That results in the back of the heel being deeper by exactly the amount of the overhang on the front--so that when you place the new neck on the body before any cutting, it's sitting at its final angle, and you can get a feel for how it's going to look.

You don't see too many good violins with the bottom of the heel parallel to the ribs. Most of the stress is at the back of the heel (at the front, the stress is compression, not tension, holding the front of the heel in, not pulling it out), and if it isn't taken by the block, by being deeper there, it's going to the button, and the button is something you don't want to see break off.

[Chris Knowlton]

So, 85 degrees would cause the button end of the heel to be set deeper into the upper block than the fingerboard end of the heel, and the greater depth at the button end gives more strength (in tension) because the mortise is more exaggerated (?)

Chris
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[Michael Darnton]

No, I think that would result in a set that was almost parallel with the ribs. Not deep enough at the back, anyway....

[Chris Knowlton]

Sorry, yes 87 degrees. The closer to 90 degrees the further the back of the heel is set into the block.

Chris
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[Chris Knowlton]

OK I'm going to get these numbers straight yet. The general range seems to be between 83 degrees (not 87) and 85 degrees. It seems that 83 would make the heel parallel to the face of the ribs. 85 degrees would allow the back of the heel to be positioned deeper into the mortise than the front of the heel. Yes?
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[violinarius]

You seem to be having trouble visualizing this, may I suggest a pencil and paper, along with a compass to draw a life size drawing as an aid.

[Mark Sullivan]

Some potential help here.

http://www.violins.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?t=451&highlight=neck

[Chris Knowlton]

[quote= "Chris Knowlton"]So, 85 degrees would cause the button end of the heel to be set deeper into the upper block than the fingerboard end of the heel, and the greater depth at the button end gives more strength (in tension) because the mortise is more exaggerated (?) [/quote]

[quote="Michael Darnton"]No, I think that would result in a set that was almost parallel with the ribs. Not deep enough at the back, anyway....[/
quote]

I understand the process and the reasoning behind it OK. I’m looking for clarification on the heel angle. I originally thought that 85* would give just the right amount of extra mortise depth to the back of the heel. Michael suggested that 85* would make it parallel to the ribs. The other common heel angle is 83* which would reduce the depth of the mortise at the back of the heel. Michael knows his stuff so it confused me.

Chris
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[Michael Darnton]

The differences are slight, but if you're going to take advice, I suggest you do what the better professional shops do, not what amateur violin makers write in their many books.

I did reset a neck with a parallel mortise yesterday. Obviously the person who did it sensed he was doing something weak, because he set the front in 2mm extra to compensate, cutting too far into the top and weakening the block as well. (And his neckset didn't work, tonally, either, but that's another story. . . )

[M.Lange]

[Chris Knowlton]

Hi Michael.
I’m not questioning your method. As a new builder I embrace and follow your methods and suggestions. I understand, after your first reply, the logic of having the back of the heel mortised a couple of millimeters deeper than the front. I would like to do it that way.
What I’m trying to find is the heel angle necessary to get there. Your second answer, that 85 degrees puts the heel parallel with the ribs, means that a lesser angle (83 degrees) would cause the opposite of what you want to achieve. So is a heel angle somewhere around 87 degrees required to achieve the mortise that you recommend?

Thanks,
Chris
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[violinarius]

[Chris Knowlton]

Hi violinarius.

Thank you for your concern but I do understand the geometry. I guess I've been wording my posts poorly. I have been following the Johnson and Courtnall book which recommends 85 degrees for the heel angle. Michael says that 87 degrees is the way to go. I accept and embrace this and his reasons why.
Michael also said that 85 degrees would give you an even mortise depth. What I am trying to figure out is: What happens to the builders that follow Wake, Brown, and Strobel and cut their heel at 83 degrees. If 85 degrees sets the heel parallel with the ribs, these makers must be screwed when it comes time to set the neck. The back of the heel would be set to a lesser depth than the front.

Chris
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[Michael Darnton]

Without looking I shouldn't guess this, but some people, especially in the period when Wake would have been writing, have used a neckset more aggressive than we use now. I wonder if looking at Wake would confirm that. That would be with a slightly higher bridge, and deeper insert (the distance between board and top at the heel).