Violin Forum/Message Board

[Mat Roop]

I keep a supply of 192 bloom strength clear hide glue for most work and also a supply of the same stuff but in 315 bloom strength....The common practice as I understand it is that the 192 low strength glue is used for tops, boards, & nuts etc. and the 315 high strength for backs, necks and joints that are under high stress or not likely to ever be opened.

In a discussion with a major professional luthier, I was told that there is an evolving theory that basically says that once dry a 192 glue joint is as strong as a 315 joint and so it is not necessary to use the higher strength glue in lutherie.

Being news to me, I called Jay Utzig the technical expert at Milligan and Higgins ( 518-762-4638) and posed the question... Is it true that a 2:1 water:glue 192 joint is as strong as a 315 joint.. all things being equal.
The answer was technically, no... a 315 joint is indeed stronger HOWEVER...
in lutherie the following points apply:
1-a 192 joint properly done is always stronger than the wood that it joins, therefore the need to use the stronger glue is irrelevant.
2- using a stronger glue is more likely to create an inferior joint because the glue will set faster and the likelihood of a clean liquid set is diminished.
3-using a stronger glue is more likely to create an inferior joint because in order to get an easy flowing longer set time the glue could be compromised by increased dilution or the addition of urea or salt.
4- The key to perceived tough and stressed joints such as end grain and necks is to size first.
5- There is also the perception in some minds that the 192 glue shrinks more than the 315, so in a less perfect fit such as a crack repair, the 192 will pull together better. Jay advised that while technically correct, the variance in shrinkage is so small that in practice it makes no difference.

Therefore for stress joints why would we luthiers use anything but a high quality 192 clear glue diluted correctly at 2:1 by weight, and applied and clamped before any gelling occurs. For joints such as tops and boards, the dilution could simply be higher which would weaken the joint making future removal easier. Why would we go to the trouble to inventory the 315 glue... and subject ourselves to greater difficulty in working with the 315 glue???

... just thought I'd share my recent findings.... cheers, Mat

[Franciscus]

[Chet Bishop]

Good Stuff! I think I may switch to 192.
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[Michael Darnton]

The only advantage I am aware of with higher grades is that the glue is cleaner. Some restorers try, as a matter of policy, to use the cleanest glue they can for cracks. Me, I am not sure the cracks are any less visible from doing that. I get the best results from better clamping methods rather than better glue. Cleaner glue sets up much faster, which can be a liability in getting cracks glued, clamped, aligned and tight within the setting time.

Another possible issue is that the highest grades are more brittle, less elastic. Restoring, we always wondered if there would be a problem from that, of cracks wanting to open later from a shock. That's just an idea, not a fact, though.

I use the normal stuff for everything these days.
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[Dave Chandler]

Is it possible for ground glue to go bad over time? I've been using from the same pound of dry glue I bought some years back, and recently it has been failing me. I'm making up fresh batches, but lately not satisfied with results although doing everything the same as always.

I've just ordered and received a fresh batch from my supplier, and threw the old stuff away....its not all that expensive.
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[Cliff Green]

Thanks for the information.

Could someone give a source for Milligan and Higgins glue? I just returned some glue from a supplier who has changed brands. It smelled awful. Thanks

[johngia]

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-HIDEGL.XX

Where I bought mine this past year. They have excellent explanation of some of the grades. Don't know if they still supply Milligan and Higgins.

I came to the same conclusion as this thread does --- 192 Standard stuff, not the "High Clarity" .

[kjb]

i also am happy with tools for woodworking

[johngia]

By the way, Dave --- I had the same problem with Behlen Hide Glue. Bought the first batch years ago. Smelled real sweet. Ran out. Bought a second batch of it from a local woodworking store. The stuff stunk. Did not mix up like the original stuff. Threw it out. That's when I started researching the subject and ended up with the Milligans and Higgans.

Learned that Behlen has a gram strength of 164. Was used to working with that, and was concerned about working time with the 192, but no problem. And so far none of my early violins have fallen apart with the 164. I assume --- hope at least --- that it also is stronger than the wood itself.

[Charles B]

I've been buying mine from Bjorne.net for several years. I think it's really good product and the maker seem very knowledgable in the field of glue

[Franciscus]

I am using "slow tack 222 grade", bought from International Violin Co and I am pretty happy with that.

[Mat Roop]

[Mat Roop]

[johngia]

I chose the regular over the high clarity as according to Tools for Woodworking, the high clarity was slightly more tacky. I interpreted that as slightly shorter working time. Probably doesn't make much of a difference, but I need all the help I can get