Violin Forum/Message Board

Dave Chandler · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: Harmonics on A and E strings

I'm stumped -- I've been playing this violin almost daily for about 2 years, fitted with Obligato light strings. This past couple days its developed an octive harmonic on both A and E strings as you move up into 3rd position, and gets pretty bad when you're playing nearly an octive above the open string note. For instance, on the E, as you approach B, C, and D in third position the harmonic gets worse.

I've swapped out strings, tailpiece, removed the chinrest, still getting harmonics. Fingerboard, bass bar, bridge all look good. No sign of any open seams anywhere. This was a fine playing violin, I've done nothing to it until today when it really got bad, and I've run out of things to look at. Any clues out there? Weather maybe (hoping so)?
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

Dave Chandler · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:48 pm Post subject: Harmonics

I've moved the bridge about 2mm today and no major change in the situation.
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

DonLeister · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:29 pm Post subject:

Tried a different bow?

Dave Chandler · Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: Harmonics

Don, you're a gem! I now have a new favorite bow!! At least for the time being, the harmonics are gone.
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

Dave Chandler · Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: harmonics

Its back, doesn't matter which bow. I may rework the fingerboard relief on the e and a side, lower the fb from the nut to the end of the neck perhaps .2mm or so. its kinda flat, and may be the source even though I can see daylight under the strings when playing the affected notes. At least that will be eliminated as a possible source. It perhaps should have been the first thing to do...Occam's Razor - you know.
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

Dave Chandler · Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:48 pm Post subject: Harmonics

Not much change, scooped out fingerboard a bit, no change, but now the E is a bit clearer, as is the A, but hearing some harmonics on the D now. I'm completely flabbergasted. Looked inside with mirror, bass bar seems intact, nothing looks out of place, soundpost looks like a nice fit, can't see anything there. All the fittings have been changed out and back, no change. Only thing haven't swapped out is the pegs, but I guess that's all that's left. This violin sounded great up to now, made it two years ago, two seasons in local orchestra, no problem.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

DonLeister · Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:04 pm Post subject:

Can you describe the harmonics more?

Dave Chandler · Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:27 pm Post subject: Harmonics

They're showing up as a full octave below the note being played, and occur mostly when playing --- E on the A string and A on the E string (second finger in third position) are most pronounced.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

DonLeister · Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:26 pm Post subject:

The open strings are vibrating sympathetically?
I usually think of harmonics as higher in pitch the stopped note.

Dave Chandler · Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: harmonics

This evening, it sounds only like harsh overtones, but still when playing higher on the strings. It seems to change, and could be damp weather, who knows. I have NOT changed the bridge, fingerboard, pegs. I'm going to slip another bridge in just to see if it goes away. I'm running out of things to try.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

Chet Bishop · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:52 am Post subject:

I have heard of this sort of thing before, but I can't recall where. Some players can do it deliberately, and I seem to remember reading about a woman who had learned to do it well enough that she could play melodies an octave below the normal register of the violin.

I don't understand how it works...I think "harmonic" is as close to a correct description as I would know to give, even though I agree that harmonics are usually higher, not lower. Perhaps someone else will remember this phenomenon and call it by a more proper name.

Perhaps, in reality, it is some sort of Tartini tone, since it is causing a fundamental lower than the violin is really able to play? Psychoacoustics, anyone?
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Chet Bishop
https://bluefiddles.com
https://fivestringfiddles.com

JG · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject:

Maybe some kind of combination tone? You sound two notes (or one note plus a sympathetic vibration), and then hear a low pitch whose frequency is the difference between the other two. We get this sometimes on electric guitar. Can be fun or irritating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_tone

Looks like Chet is on the right track with "Tartini tone".

Chet Bishop · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:07 pm Post subject:

I think in ham radio this (or something like it) was called "heterodyne"--and in water it causes "rogue waves"...but neither of those help the OP any. Sorry.
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Chet Bishop
https://bluefiddles.com
https://fivestringfiddles.com

Dave Chandler · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:09 pm Post subject: Harmonics

The problem is resolved. The change in its behavior was only recent, so I was looking for something that might have happened to it in the last couple months. It was something I had ignored hoping not to have to go inside (and hoping not the culprit).

I had glued a small weight inside the belly when I first made this violin to cure a sound problem. It worked great for the first nearly two years. It could be that the violin has aged with play and time. Anyway, the weight is removed, problem gone.
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

byacey · Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:18 am Post subject:

A sympathetic vibration? I was going to suggest something wasn't glued down tight, but I never would have guessed a weight inside the instrument!
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Bill