Violin Forum/Message Board

jacobyfineviolins · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 55 Location: Omaha, NE

Hello all,

I do an asymmetrical graduation, adjusting my basic Sacconi graduation map to push the drive point of each plate under the soundpost, and to allow a free-er, even flexibility from end to end.
I've found that this translates to a thinner spot above and to the bass side of the center of the plate on the back, and the to the treble side on the top, although the bassbar being in my way might be why I started going to the opposite side. Can't find ALL my notes...
There are a few other quirks I've developed, or abandonded, but;
I'm wondering whether anyone sticks faithfully to symmetry when graduation, who doesn't, and the pros and cons you might see for either frame of mind.

Cheers,
Chris
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ctviolin · Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Asymmetrical Graduation

Michael Darnton · Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:07 pm Post subject:

In 1981 Nova on PBS ran a program called the Great Violin Mystery. In it, Jack Fry (a physicist at U of Wisc, Madison--being a physicist in the violin field is usually a bad sign) made his case for asymmetrical back grads aimed at the idea of centering movement around the post, and claimed that Cremonese violins were asymmetrically graduated. Fry illustrated his idea with a trampoline, marking an off-center post position, and then removing springs on the west side and north, moving the center of bounce to the "post" position so that a person jumping there would not be thrown towards the center of the trampoline as would normally be the case. It made a good TV demonstration.

When Hacklingers came out, I was working at B&F, seeing a constant flow of Cremonese violins, so I started taking back grads with the idea of proving or disproving Fry's idea, and added two points to the charts I was making anyway, the thickness as close to the post as I could get, and the corresponding spot on the other side of the centerline. After about 20 examples it became evident that they were asymmetrical, but randomly, about 40% on one side, 40% on the other, and 20% about the same.

The French makers of the mid-late 1800s had somewhat the same concept, and moved the thick spot of the back down parallel with the post, resulting in a lump between the lower corners rather than in the center. That really doesn't work at all, I can tell you for sure.

Sacconi's charts are certainly much more regular and consistent than any Cremonese maker every thought of doing things.

If it's not clear, I'm voting for asymmetry, but randomly, not too carefully organized.
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jacobyfineviolins · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 55 Location: Omaha, NE

CT- I've used Sitka for cello and guitars, but never violin. I love the little cross-fleck figure it usually has. How does it suit you for violin?

Michael- would you say the randomness suits each instrument? That's pretty vague... Would you think the thinner spots were made that way to account for something in the wood, ie heavy figure, or just that the plate was adjusted for flex after it was graduated out willy-nilly?
The Nova program you mentioned is where I started from with my assym. graduation. J. Stanley Hooper gave me a VHS tape of it when I was at Prier's.
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Michael Darnton · Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:46 pm Post subject:

There's a point of current violin thinking that I'm in total disagreement with, and that is that it is desirable to build a particular tonal quality into a violin. That is, in my opinion, not what the greatest violins are about: they're about making an instrument that offers the player anything he wants and can find a way to draw out of a violin.

Building virtual tonal railroad tracks for the violin to run on may assure that the player can't make a bad sound, but it severely limits the options he has for making a wide range of different sounds. I currently think that being too rigid in grads in certain ways, or things like plate tuning, which work to make the violin operate in a prescribed way, are exactly the wrong direction to go in.
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jacobyfineviolins · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 55 Location: Omaha, NE

I will chew on that. Thank you.
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ctviolin · Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:07 am Post subject:

kjb · Super Member Joined: 06 Feb 2013 Posts: 385

is anybody using red maple from the east?

ctviolin · Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:45 am Post subject:

Yes, in fact I believe one of the members on Maestronet was felling and putting Red Maple into billets and selling it for fiddle.

I do remember using some once, after an abluqurque NM violin makers meeting some years ago, and if I remember correctly, it wasn't that different, quality wise, from the Big Leaf I was used to...
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Chet Bishop · Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:06 am Post subject:

Elon Howe, of Newaygo, Michigan, is still selling Red Maple. Good stuff.

I have used it, and Luis Manfio has used it, among others.

Red maple tends to have some little streaks in it that people call "worm-track", that do not seem to have any detrimental effect on tone, but which some people don't like. Incidentally, Chinese maple has the same streaks, and some have mistaken Red maple for Chinese, because of that similarity.
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ctviolin · Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:13 am Post subject:

Mikes · Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:27 am Post subject:

kjb · Super Member Joined: 06 Feb 2013 Posts: 385

well thanks for the input, and the links . kevin

jacobyfineviolins · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2013 Posts: 55 Location: Omaha, NE

I love red maple, tonally, and it gives a gorgeous base color for your ground varnish.
CT, I use Engelmann, but if the density is under .35, I put a thin maple veneer into the soundpost area, to avoid crushing. As for Engelmann vs. alpine spruce, it's more a matter of how much easier the American is to work than any tonal results.
I think that soft Bosnian ages better. It seems to mellow and enrich with time.
But I am not one to put American wood down. I think learning how to use what you have in front of you should be a measure of whether you're a good maker or not.
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L P Reedy · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:53 pm Post subject:

Chris,

I've seen a number of Loen-type thickness maps of Strads and del Gesus but I don't have his book so what I've seen may not be typical. However, the impression I have is that many Strad backs are thickest on the treble side a little north of the sound post with the thinnest areas being in the bass side upper and lower bouts. The actual patterns vary tremendously. Del Gesus, on the other hand seem to be pretty symmetrical. I TEND to lean toward what I see as the Strad pattern, but certainly not religiously.