Violin Forum/Message Board

[famuswood]

I believe I have a nice color on my violin after a coat of yellow oil varnish and two coats of red brown varnish. I'm concerned about applying too much oil varnish that might kill the tone of the violin but would like to darken around the edges of the violin. I was thinking of applying one more thin coat using the red brown with a drop or two of dark brown extract on the edges and using another coat of red brown in the center. Would I be better off just leaving the violin with two coats of red brown - even though it may not be as dark as I would wish?

Thanks for any assistance.

[rs]

This is what I have found. Oil varnish is damaging to tone if it is directly applied to the bare wood. A good non-oil sizing and ground help eliminate that problem. Oil varnish needs to oxidize to "dry" and if it is applied to bare wood, the oil is drawn into the grain and seems to stay indefinately. The effect is about the same as applying rubber to the instrument. When oil varnish is applied to a non-absorbant surface, this problem is all but eliminated. It took me awhile to sift through that dilemma.

Therefore, each additional coat of oil varnish to an already varnished instrument has very little impact on the tonal response; several coats are needed to change the tone drastically.

The second thing I have found that may help you find the answer to the question is that IF THE TONE IS GOOD NOW, it is better to add the same amount of varnish to each plate, that is, if you varnish the back, varnish the top the same amount. Sparingly is much better, but as the plates need to work together to produce a fine quality tone, if the same amount of mass is added to each, they still tend to work in synch.

I would have no problem, therefore, adding a little more varnish to an instrument; I would simply do it as above. I would still be confident about the outcome.

But that is just me.
_________________
Randall Shenefelt

[famuswood]

rs

I did seal the bare wood prior to applying the oil varnish with several coats of very thin dewaxed shellac. I got that tip from Michael Darnton and it worked out well. Sounds like another coat wouldn't hurt in your experience - aye? I'm wondering about trying to blend a darker oil varnish on the edges and at the same time apply another coat of the original color in the central areas of the top and bottom plates. I guess the good news is that I can always remove it if I don't like the look. Thanks for your help.

[rs]

Yes, you pretty much can make an instrument anything you desire.

The shellac idea is good, and you were wise to take his advice.

There are far too few Michael Darntons in this business.

Hope your violin turns out as you hope.
Best wishes
_________________
Randall Shenefelt

[DonLeister]

I have never been that good at putting on a lot of color with a brush, to add some color, I like to use artist oil paints, straight from the tube or thinned a little with linseed oil, or kerosene. Some of the brown madder colors or transparent iron oxides, with some ivory black or dark alizarin. Be it yellow, brown, blue, red, go for the dark intense colors. I mix a little and swirl some on to test, it wipes off easily.

I put it on with a brush or fingers and slowly spread it till you have it the way you like. Even it out by tamping or patting it with your finger or palm, a dry brush, paper towel. It's a very forgiving process since if you don't like it you can remove it with some mineral spirits , before it has dried , of course!

It helps to give the surface to be colored to give it some tooth, rub it with some pumice with your fingers or some steel wool, careful not to go through previous work.
This process is called glazing, for violinmakers anyway.

[famuswood]

I want to be sure I understand, Don. 1. Can I put artist color over my existing oil varnish coats after roughing up the surface? 2. Can I use liquin for faster drying? 3. Are there any issues or procedures I should follow putting a clear coat of oil varnish over the oil paint? I do like the idea of applying artist color at a slower pace than I would be forced to do with oil varnish. Thanks

[DonLeister]

I am liking just straight oil colors, they dry well, a light box or sunshine will help speed things up. Liquin seems kind of leathery, not optically great. I have added linseed oil or varnish in the past.

Roughing up is an overstatement, just cutting back the gloss and dust bumps from earlier clear coats, rubbing it with pumice or steel wool or very light sanding with some mineral oil or spirits would work. Then let it dry and knock off any dust bits and put on some clear coat(s).

[Chet Bishop]

When I do this (glazing) I add enough of my oil varnish (whatever I have been using already) to the colors to make the mixture somewhat sloppy, then a few drops of linseed oil, to stretch the working time, and make it easy to work with. I am working with such a thin film that it will "go off" and harden rather suddenly, without the added oil.

I brush the color on, then rub it in with my fingers, rubbing across the grain with the palm of my hand, so that the colors get deposited more heavily in the low spots in the grain (I tend to raise the grain a little before I begin varnishing).

I use a rag to remove color in areas I want very light, but the palm of my hand will get it thin enough in most places. I rub it very thin, so that the color does not obscure the grain or anything else in the finish-- it just adds color...and only the amount I want.

As the glaze begins to "go off" (for lack of better term), it will suddenly begin to resist being moved laterally. At that point, I begin "patting" with my fingertips (hundreds of times, very rapidly) which picks up and moves tiny amounts of color, in fingerprint form, and leaves it a very smooth matte finish, with no streaks or smears. Once it is exactly the way I want it, I hang it up to dry, and don't touch it until it is really dry, as it will be fairly fragile until one or more coats of varnish are added to protect it.
_________________
Chet Bishop
https://bluefiddles.com
https://fivestringfiddles.com

[DonLeister]

Great description Chet! I have used the varnish or oil too and that does look nice.
Sometimes I might wait a few hours and come back and can get rid of any streaks or such since the consistency gets harder.

[Chet Bishop]

My varnish dried quickly enough that if I did not have the streaks out in that first 15 minutes or so, I would have to strip it off and start over. BTW, I was raising the grain with coffee, at that time, which made the wood a nce tan color, too.

Currently (last three) I am pursuing a spirit-varnish...I use a heavily thinned propolis and shellac ground, which raises the grain a tiny bit, I suppose because of the small amount of water that is almost always in alcohol. The coffee raised the grain a lot. I liked it, but some folks thought it was too much.

I have another idea for the ground on my next one...we'll see how it works. If it works, I think it will look nice. I'm taking a fair chunk of forever, getting it done, because of other commitments (life in general). It is a 16.25" viola.
_________________
Chet Bishop
https://bluefiddles.com
https://fivestringfiddles.com

[famuswood]

I chose to attempt adding artist oil (Winsor & Newton) to my violin top, back and ribs. I just used straight burnt sienna mixed with a fair amount of refined linseed oil. I was very pleased with the resulting color. It was a laborious process to tap the surface until i got the color to appear relatively smooth without individual taps leaving many single prints. I used a rubber glove so my fingerprints wouldn't show and that seemed to help. I didn't run out of time and the color continued to be workable until I finished. I'm prepared for a lengthy drying time. My only concern is that I will get a smooth clear coat of oil varnish over the artist oil. I looked at it the next day and it is beginning to look quite smooth, so I'm hoping that won't be an issue when I do the clear coats. I hope what I did is acceptable and very much appreciate all the comments. Thanks

[Dave Chandler]

I've been putting on oil varnish in a technique similar to french polishing -- I take a bit of paper towel or rag, dip it in the oil varnish and then smear it on the violin, pushing it around until it starts to get sticky, then wipe the whole thing down quickly. It it the thinest of finishes, and is dry in an hour or two so that it can't be brought back up (re-dissolved) by the next application. I usually do an application in the morning before I go to the office, another when I get home, another before I go to bed. It takes 10-15 of these applications to get the color I'm looking for. Its slow, but I never have drips or brush marks, and I can concentrate on areas that I want to have darker than the others. It also tends to fill low areas the way french polish does, ends up a fairly smooth surface, and a sort of antique look with the recessed edges and corners being darker then the large open areas.

I've also been practicing some new techniques on some scrap that is highly figured wood. I've rubbed the piece all over with shellac with a bit of final color in it, thinned way down with alcohol. Then a light scraping, then another application an hour or two later, and light scraping again. Then I take clear lacquer and thin it down 3 to 1 with lacquer thinner, and rub it all over as a sealer. I do two coats, rubbing it all around like you would as if you were doing a french polish again (but without the oil), it tends to fill all the grains slightly while sealing the wood. Then, it takes only one final coat of colored shellac in a french polish application. It only needs a clear coat over that to protect. I've been pleased with my sample. Very transluscent, smooth and glossy.

I've also tried the use of some Truoil (for gun stock refinishing) water-based walnut stain, diluted greatly in alcohol and applied sucessive coats to raw spruce (top) to get it nearer the color of the maple so that when I finish the entire violin, it helps level the difference in shading between front and back. You have to experiment on wood scraps first. It has no redness to it, so it doesn't add a redish tint to the color. You do have to have a very clean surface i.e. no nicks, as tool marks will show, so will ragged grain ends in the channel where scraping runs at right angles to the grain.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

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