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Oded Kishony Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 100 Location: Central Virginia
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Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Varnish is mass, and as such, must simply be treated as such. |
Thanks for your interesting insights.
I've been testing various varnish materials acoustically. I would have to disagree with some of your statements. All varnish ingredients don't behave the same way. Some of them increase stiffness, some reduce mass (don't ask me how I just measure and record) some reduce low frequencies but raise high frequencies. I haven't even touched on damping properties.
My strategy for dealing with the effects of varnish are
1) Play the instrument in the white and compare it to the finished instrument. Use a comparator instrument to help memory
2) Apply a clear sealer after voicing the instrument, test and make anyh necessary adjustments.
I think using these strategies you can target the tone you desire more accurately
Oded Kishony |
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CT Dolan Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2008 Posts: 143
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Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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With regard to adding wood to an instrument, that comment reminds me of a Pietro Guarneri of Mantua violin I was given the privilege to observe (the entire instrument was in pieces - the top, back, ribs, neck and head all being separated from one another). Anyway, the back had the most curious treatment, wood having been added to the interior, THE ENTIRE INTERIOR, as if the whole of the interior carried a verneer!!! What was even more remarkable is that the figure of the wood, both on the inside and outside, were a dead match, making it very easy for one to think it a common piece. How someone actually fitted this piece, with the interior arching and all, is beyond me, but there it was. The instrument was in for some CT scans, to determine the nature of the inner veneer (how thick it was, etc), as well as the nature of the glue boundary that must exist between the two, the outer and inner surfaces.
Strange thing, it was. However, curious though it may have been, the instrument's crowning glory was to be found in the most beautiful ground and varnish I have ever seen! Looking down into the varnish layer (where present), gave one an impression of great depth, especially when viewed in natural sunlight. It was wonderful. |
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Michael Darnton Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 1347 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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A good Peter of Mantua varnish is the very best of all, in my opinion.
Last edited by Michael Darnton on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Cadd Super Member
Joined: 23 Jul 2009 Posts: 1346 Location: Hoylake
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: tapering |
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| This topic is going so well.I am proud of you all. On the subject of books it would inspire any maker or player to read the entry about Stradivarius in the Dictionary of Violinmakers. Just a few short sentences , but I have seldom read anything so eloquent. |
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Joseph Leahy Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2008 Posts: 98 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | Good Peter of Mantua is the very best of all, in my opinion. |
Specifically relating to ground/varnish or including other aspects? |
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Michael Darnton Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 1347 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Sorry--I just realized my post didn't make any sense and edited it.
At his best, his varnish is the most visually spectacular. Everything works out right, the ground makes the wood very transparent, and his colors are beautiful. His woodworking is physically beautiful and elegant, but tonally he's not always the most effective.
Last edited by Michael Darnton on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joseph Leahy Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2008 Posts: 98 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Michael, thanks for the clarification. |
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CT Dolan Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2008 Posts: 143
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| The arching on the Peter Guarneri (of Mantua) I had the opportunity to view in person was rather high and full, quite similar to the one featured in the Strad poster I have at home. And you are right, Michael, the workmanship was very elegant (very classy work), topped off with the most beautiful ground and varnish, one of great depth and vivid color. Even the bare wood had a shimmer (the ground was breathtaking), and where the varnish remained, it gave one the appearance of a transparent layer seeming to be 1/2" thick, so alive it was. I feel so fortunate to have had the opportunity to view this instrument, as I did for a time, both indoor at the bench and out in full sunlight, to marvel at the finish. The image of it has been seared into my brain and as I had commented to another before, having seen this violin, this finish I am now at least aware of the goal. Getting there might be tough, but at least I know where I'm headed. |
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mr_violin Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 52 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:25 am Post subject: |
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[quote="DonLeister"]Mr. Violin,
Since you asked I recommend Michael Darnton, attend his workshop that Jim Brown, Violinmaker, of Claremont , CA organizes and runs. Michael is a well known, active violin maker- not an anonymous, online, verbose armchair violin expert of which there are plenty of.
The workshop will save you valuable time, makers of may different skill levels go there, Jim makes things run super smooth and Michael is just a great teacher, he'll teach you from where you are at. You'll meet a lot of great people that love to make violins and talk about it. At age 54 you'll want to learn efficient methods of working that will not cause problems for your body
(I'm 50, I've made 40 or so instruments and gaining speed).
If the workshop is not possible then try to read Michael's posts, he has been very helpful over the years.[/quote]
I realy can`t make it to the workshops at this time. I do read anything I can find that Michael posts . I do have an opportunity to go see Michael and talk to him. I only live 20 miles from his shop.
I only think it best for me to learn all I can on my own befor I go wasting his time with things I can do for myself. I think I will still learn a lot from the violins I am repairimg and rebuilding . I still have to get the strad magazine posters and study them. Also I am still getting together more of the tools I need.
But thanks for all the help !!!! |
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Michael Darnton Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 1347 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Come visit any time! I never mind having visitors. |
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mr_violin Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 52 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks, I will do that. I have been sick for the last 2 weeks ,now my kids are sick. I better wait till this flu thing is over. I`ll give you a call . |
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John Cadd Super Member
Joined: 23 Jul 2009 Posts: 1346 Location: Hoylake
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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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R S Going back to the metallic sound you achieve before applying varnish ,I was struck by the sound of a violinist this week playing a concerto (radio) and how it sounded.Really metallic and not to be confused with the sound some steel strings make.
There is a u tube about a carbon fibre violin which sounded as if it needed some varnish too.That did not sound nice at all.But then how would you put varnish on that ? |
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