Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

I broke a little rule again when working out the best afterlength .I changed the tail loop at the same time . The tail loop was changed for a steel strand loop. That gave an overall metallic sound on all the strings . That is worth remembering on it`s own .
The test to check the afterlength note versus a pinched note on the playing side showed the afterlength was too long.This was using a Harp tailpiece .The G string afterlength on a Harp must be double the length on a straight tailpiece.I only needed to shorten the afterlength just less than 3mm . That made a big difference mainly on the A string .Before the A was almost unplayable. After the change it started sounding good . But the whole exercise became too confusing for me .
I may need to be more methodical and precise .But very small changes have large effects .
So no definite conclusions for now .

[John Cadd]

I changed the tailpiece on the Medio Fino back to a standard shape . Imeasured this violin again and this one is a completely standard 4/4 size .The old german model has a longer body.
The afterlength is now at 1/6th setting exactly .But for some reason the A string is not happy .The other strings play well .The soundpost is well fitted .But the A string has always been a problem even with different brands.That`s where I am stuck .
If you fit a Hill shaped tailpiece with a sharp central ridge --that ridge is 3mm higher than a smooth curved design at the bottom end as it passes underneath a chinrest . If you like a low chinrest you need to watch for touching parts just out of sight .

[John Cadd]

I caved in and gave way to get a tailpiece that totally matches the dark brown varnish on my Octave violin. The wood is Palmwood and has a gorgeous stripey dark and light brown colour. A bit heavier than the brazilwood model .The Palmwood is also a Harp design . I asked the seller what position he would recommend. He kindly replied that maybe the afterlength on G could be tuned to a C instead of D. I had to estimate that afterlength with the string pinch method . I also changed to a stranded steel tail gut . So happily it all came out right . The D open string had been a bit too dominant in volume before . Now with the C afterlength it all chimed in perfectly . All the string volumes and tones were balanced . The bow would bite just right on any string . You notice that more in a lower octave . Tone colours were super good . The four strings certainly have their own characters . Tone was varied between close to bridge and calmer further down the string .No scratchiness near the bridge . Now the sun is shining .

[Michael Darnton]

I watched a workshop a long time ago where Aaron Rosand explained to students how to hold a violin without a shoulder rest, chinrest only. It's hard to describe, but what he did was place his left hand over (from in front, obviously) his right shoulder blade as far as he could reach so that his left elbow was in front of his chin. Then he held the violin in his right hand by the lower bout, fingers in back, thumb just under the right f-hole, and placed it between his left shoulder and the side of his chin. He said that this routine put everything in the right place.

Students who tried it did not seem to have any particular problems, but to me it's a reminder that the violin is not a comfortable instrument to play! Cello for the win!
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[John Cadd]

One problem.This is the Tailpiece topic.But I have come to a similar conclusion about chinrests .

[Michael Darnton]

So it is. I posted in the wrong thread!!!
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[John Cadd]

I think I pinned down the correct position for Harp tailpieces today . I had fitted a shorter tailpiece with built in tuners.That landed the afterlength in exactly the right place .This is on the reconstructed violin that had the top in ten separate pieces when it arrived . Comparing the built in tuner tailpiece with the harp Brazilwood tailpiece they were the same length and the slating insert lands just where the D string insert sits on both taipieces . I had put on the stranded steel tail loop .
It`s early days for this violin. I have just sorted out the bridge string grooves ,The feet are fitted well and the soundpost is in a good position . I had the first chance to test the sound for literally a few seconds . My hearing implant is still damping down the tone within a few seconds .So It forces me to wait six or seven seconds before I can try another note . But the bridge is still completely thick and needs the full makeover. Even like that I can tell this going to be a good one . I will have to rustle up some testers from the local orchestra . I think they would enjoy that novelty .
This violin had no purfling and an unusual colour scheme .The varnish was a bit casual with some mauve and brown mixed but with a black outer lining from the edge to the inner purfling line (if there had been any purfling ).
Altogether it creates a dramatic impact . I fitted purfling to help the new corners I had repaired but the purfling standard was shamefully bad . I shall happily hide that below some new black varnish .

[John Cadd]

Looking back to the original question I realise this topic spans the time from before my hearing implant operation to today .
Woodsound Studio Violin Family Setup
has the ideal Sideways Diagram to set up a violin. A simple , clear explanation .

[John Cadd]

Tailpieces look much the same on the surface. Underneath is a different story . They are smoothed out on some machine that is not set for any accuracy .Underneath a fingerboard is a standardised shaping .That is just to keep the weight standard I expect .
But a tailpiece needs things with screws to be fitted. The holes are 4mm wide and set at 4 different angles . Each hole needs to be drilled perpendicular to the curve.But that cutting angle is not always accurate. The under surface is out of sight so nobody worries about the shape there .So screws that have a square angle at the top meet an irregular angle to upset the working of fine tuners. Fitting a countersunk screw on a wonky surface will bend a screw when it is tightened .A tight adjuster screw makes a player reach for some kind of lubrication.That is not always a good solution .Violins seem to be made to force a player to endure frustration .

[John Cadd]

Reading the first answer from Mr Darnton about the close fitting of the tail end of the tailpiece ,gives a very useful chance for a little sound test without unravelling the strings and tailpice .
If you have adjusted the afterlength already and find there is a gap at the bottom end the slack length of tail loop could be controlled with some kind adjustable buffer .Maybe Wittners could make a hard plastic buffer with a screw adjuster That would be a solid contact between the end block up to the tail loop. Make sure you protect the varnish .
Mechanically it would be simple to fit and cheap to make. Even as a temporary fix before buying a different tailpiece it would a way for a sound check .Fitted with a screw working sideways you would call it a Folding Wedge. Something for a Luthier to play with . Easy to make a before and after test .

[John Cadd]

If you watch the factory tour video for Fazioli Pianos they show where the higher strings are tuned and the "non sounding" sections of strings are also tuned to resonate with the main strings . Aliquot is another word connected with this. I was comparing that process with adjusting the afterlength on a violin.The piano tuners call this the Duplex system and Faziolis have small pieces that are movable to find the exact note. The effect gives a harmonic "halo" to improve the tone . That must be their word for "Sizzle" that violinists use .
Sadly some piano tuners do not know much about these finer points of pianos and even worse are some who know but decide not to bother as it takes longer and makes less profit .
Anyway tailpieces and fine tuners and tail loops can all be blended together to make a nice "Halo" .
If you have a Harp shaped tailpiece the afterlength frequencies can be altered to suit the sound you want . One quartet tuned their Harp afterlength to be C# instead of D on the D string afterlength .I don`t think a strict ( Don`t do that ) rulebook has been written so far.
Some tailpieces are different lengths which can help or hinder the best fitting .The advice is normally about fitting the tail loop .End of . And other advice is about afterlengths ,End of . Rarely is the whole setup at both ends mentioned .
The E string afterlength seems to be neglected with long heavy fine tuners .If Faziolis made violins they would work on that as well .
Look up the Fazioli factory tour to get that in perspective .

[John Cadd]

I need to measure precisely the afterlength of a G string and a D string to see if there is an interesting difference caused by the bridge curve versus the straight across tailpiece which is also curved but in a different plane .This is for a standard violin with a standard (straight across) tailpiece , Assume there are no fine tuners attached anywhere at present . Imagine you lift the lid on a pot of jam. Tilt the lid at a low angle. each part of that lid edge is at a different distance from the pot .There will be pairs of identical distances . If the setting of an afterlength works best with precision then that can be refined with adjustments to the tailpiece inserts .
The sensitive optimum point is worth the small effort to achieve an improvement in tone. Combine that with a precise setting of the tailpiece loop .

[John Cadd]

I measured the difference between G string afterlength and the D and A afterlengths and the difference was 0.6mm . G string shorter than A and D.If you want to alter the insert or add a bit more --Ebony to ebony is easy to superglue .

[John Cadd]

Rarher than plucking or measuring the afterlength you could play the afterlength with your bow. I saw a quartet once where the afterlength was being played .The G string afterlength 2 octaves plus a fifth comes out as D6 up on the Estring or on a piano as well . The D and A afterlengths are one fifth and two fifths higher. Roll a dice for the E string afterlength if you have a fine tuner out of position .That could be flagged offside under FIFA rules .But E afterlength will match the top A note on a piano --four from the end .
Some piano tuners talking about the duplex piano system say if the sympathetic vibrations are not exact it will spoil the tone .So on a violin ,if you start getting nasty sounds --don`t give up .You are getting closer .Just double check everything .

[John Cadd]

To fit a tailpiece you need a loop .This can be made of nylon or flexible stranded steel.The nylon is less flexible (harder to bend) than the steel (easier to bend).But the nylon will stretch where the steel will not stretch.Once a nylon loop has been used ,I am not sure if the stretching has stopped .I hope somebody knows. Maybe it`s like a violin string that settles at a usable limit .
The problem with a tail loop is precise calculation of the final length .That matters because the afterlength will be directly related to the Tailpiece itself and the loop size .
Nylon tail loops can be quite long and used for various tailpieces sizes . Steel loops come in Long and Short sizes .
The exact position of the end pin that the loop fits around may vary but it`s pretty much standardised .
After sorting out the lengths and sizes you might fancy trying all that over again with some Kevlar Cord .Clever people who are good at knots might be able to set the loop length well enough not to upset the afterlength.
This is where worries about bridge position ,afterlengths ,soundposts,tailpieces and tail loops all coincide .Wear and tear on the strings being disturbed is another thing not to be ignored . All these are important and are all interconnected.