Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

I was surprised how many tailpieces Ihad accumulated.I took off the Harp tailpiece and saw the loop adjusters were still in the middle of the thread . The cut away harp was heavier than most of my collection .It was pernambuco and the standard pernambuco was lighter . I replaced the old end pin and compared all the lengths of tailpieces available . The longest ones were trumped by a rosewood because the insert was closer to the edge. That was the lightest one I had. So the insert came dead on the 1/6th position . Each tailpiece needed some work to open the string slots for D and G strings. I would say the tone lost something with the rosewood . It was lighter and the material gave two changes at the same time . The heavier ebony ones will be the next candidates .
The rosewood added a bit of fuzziness but the position added some balance across the strings.All 4 strings had their relative character still intact even though an octave lower . This violin is resonant and rings when the bow is lifted.It`s a pity I can`t tell what it sounds like with normal strings . But I like the feel of these chunky thick strings .

[John Cadd]

As a marker to remember the best tone so far the harp tailpiece was set with the A string in the 1/6th afterlength position . That was heavier (correction --it was not as heavy as I thought ). The weights are checked on an electronic weighing machine .
The best results were on the violin with Octave strings. The best resonant notes were on the lowest frequencies so this regraduated German violin works very well . The other violin (the Medio Fino ) is not as helpful .It always had a raw edge to the sound.Maybe it`s just a bad violin . Why do I persevere with it . Basically I should open it up to understand why it is like that .
I will organise a simple jig to set the loop adjuster before fitting .It will be a piece of wood with an end pin glued in. That will be clamped in a vice .Then the loop and tailpiece can be pulled and the insert position checked against a line representing the ideal length.I think the free loop cord at the end pin end will be disregarded slightly .That gives the afterlength priority . (The crude pulling action does not get the length very exact ).

[John Cadd]

The tailpiece test today showed how they affected the tone. The Rosewood Normal design at 9.5 grams was a disappointment. Maybe the weight was too low .
I started with the Wittner with 4 built in adjusters .Weight was 18.6 grams.By the way four large older style fine tuners will weigh 21.5grams . That was muted with a metallic sound. Not muffled but not an interesting sound . The metallic part was not unpleasant in the lower notes.
Next was a tulip Ebony at 16.4grams with a reasonable sound but still subdued.The A string was difficult to play .
I changed to the normal shaped Pernambuco weighing 11.2 grams . Now I could hear the difference made by Pernambuco .A much richer sound .The D string had a strong voice .
With the pernambuco you begin to talk about Voice rather than Sound .But it did not compete with the Pernambuco Harp at 12.2 grams.
I had extended the loop to make the 1/6th afterlength level with the D string insert. That was as good as the setting level with the A string insert . The original tail loop was too short and I changed it .
The Harp tailpiece Voice reminded me of Feodor Chaliapin .This Harp Tailpiece is a wonderful creation .It feels as if the violin has a human voice . Putting the 1/6th position nearer the D string level really brings out the D string quality. It may need some practice to find the best after length but Pernambuco puts the instrument into a higher league.
Tailpiece weight adds nothing much at all . The wood type is far more important . Well worth exploration for Octave Violins .

[John Cadd]

One technical mistake was made in a Violinist .com comment.He thought the nut would need to be cut deeper to allow for thicker strings. He should have said "Cut wider" and not cut deeper. As I was tuning up the G string I played the notes much lower and the enormous ,wide vibrations were amusing but there was no rattling on the fingerboard .
I might take this note change to the extreme and try one fifth lower ,purely to help my hearing range. Up till now I have been captivated by the lowest tone quality.
Reading some of the history of Chaliapin it reminds me of the brutal ,obstructive Soviet Union authorities to music .They were too stupid to understand his quality and musical importance . That does not apply to the general Russian/Soviet public by the way .

[John Cadd]

To Devlinski-----whatever you do avoid the advice on the Fiddlershop video about changing a tailpiece. It has terrible advice and should be taken off .
That`s twice this week I have seen bad advice about violins from Fiddlershop .

[John Cadd]

David Folland violins writes that tailpieces with built in tuners can help to maintain the correct after length . Well if you look at a Wittner with 4 built in tuners you can see a distinct movement forwards and backwards if you use the screws. Of course that happens all the time with separate tuners. 4 separate tuners will make the afterlength too short until the tail loop is shortened to compensate . Maybe that`s what Mr Folland means .
But how many young players will realise all that ? Some prominent violin shops will not be much help to them either .
The Wittner uses the string adjuster to double up as the tailpiece insert. If they used a fixed insert ahead of the lever it would maintain the correct afterlength .

[John Cadd]

[quote="John Cadd"]David Folland violins writes that tailpieces with built in tuners can help to maintain the correct after length . Well if you look at a Wittner with 4 built in tuners you can see a distinct movement forwards and backwards if you use the screws. Of course that happens all the time with separate tuners. 4 separate tuners will make the afterlength too short until the tail loop is shortened to compensate . Maybe that`s what Mr Folland means .
But how many young players will realise all that ? Some prominent violin shops will not be much help to them either .
The Wittner uses the string adjuster to double up as the tailpiece insert. If they used a fixed insert ahead of the lever it would maintain the correct afterlength .[/quote] (and probably wear out the end of the string ).

[John Cadd]

Just to nail down the reason we should not fit a tailpiece "Touching" the ebony saddle. It will cause Buzzing.

[John Cadd]

The afterlength of 1/6th vibrating length is the approximate measurement you need to start. The exact setting is to get the plucked after length frequency to be one fifth plus 2 octaves above the vibrating string . So best to choose the G sting for that.If all the strings are in place and tuned the G string afterlength note should find it`s partner somewhere on the E string in 3rd position. If it`s not quite right the tail loop has to be adjusted. Oh --Yeh?? Slackenstrings
remove tailpiece .Then the note checked again ??
But finally the nylon tail loop could be a bit too long so it must be neatly cut shorter .Slacken strings etc etc What Again??? The by now worn out strings can then be safely thrown away after all that torture .
More practical would be ;Measure what is in place first .Work out what changes in length are needed .Take off the tailpiece and find a way to pull the tailpiece plus loop to measure that . Then reproduce that measurement with a new tailpiece . One piece of wood with a dowel stuck in it .Try that .Tidy up the tailpiece ends Before refitting .

[John Cadd]

[quote="John Cadd"]The afterlength of 1/6th vibrating length is the approximate measurement you need to start. The exact setting is to get the plucked after length frequency to be one fifth plus 2 octaves above the vibrating string . So best to choose the G sting for that.If all the strings are in place and tuned the G string afterlength note should find it`s partner somewhere on the E string in 3rd position. If it`s not quite right the tail loop has to be adjusted. Oh --Yeh?? Slacken strings ,
remove tailpiece .Then the note checked again ??
But finally the nylon tail loop could be a bit too long so it must be neatly cut shorter .Slacken strings etc etc What Again??? The by now worn out strings can then be safely thrown away after all that torture .
More practical would be ;Measure what is in place first .Work out what changes in length are needed .Take off the tailpiece and find a way to pull the tailpiece plus loop to measure that . Then reproduce that measurement with a new tailpiece . One piece of wood with a dowel stuck in it .Try that .Tidy up the tailpiece ends Before refitting .[/quote]

[John Cadd]

[quote="John Cadd"][quote="John Cadd"]The afterlength of 1/6th vibrating length is the approximate measurement you need to start. The exact setting is to get the plucked after length frequency to be one fifth plus 2 octaves above the vibrating string . So best to choose the G sting for that.If all the strings are in place and tuned the G string afterlength note should find it`s partner somewhere on the E string in 3rd position. If it`s not quite right the tail loop has to be adjusted. Oh --Yeh?? Slacken strings ,
remove tailpiece .Then the note checked again ??
But finally the nylon tail loop could be a bit too long so it must be neatly cut shorter .Slacken strings etc etc What Again??? The by now worn out strings can then be safely thrown away after all that torture .
More practical would be ;Measure what is in place first .Work out what changes in length are needed .Take off the tailpiece and find a way to pull the tailpiece plus loop to measure that . Then reproduce that measurement with a new tailpiece . One piece of wood with a dowel stuck in it .Try that .Tidy up the tailpiece loop ends Before refitting .[/quote][/quote]

[Michael Darnton]

Pinch the string on the playing side to give the same pitch on that side of the bridge as the afterlength now rings. Note the distance from fingernail to bridge. Pinch string to give new desired pitch, note distance to bridge, calculate difference. Take off tailpiece, turn each adjusting screw on the tail gut to shorten or lengthen the tailgut to give that change. Done.

The proper afterlength usually hangs around 54.5-55 mm for the G string. Don't forget to set the bridge straight up after tuning and then lifting the strings to allow the stress to equalize on either side of the bridge or you won't get an accurate reading of the afterlength pitch.
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[John Cadd]

Alan Goldblatt has a very useful list of Violin Measurements all in one chart . The afterlength measurement is just as Mr Darnton says .
If the desired frequency on a G string is 1/5th plus 2 octaves that means it`s a D .Is that hard to hear ? Maybe a soft plastic plectrum would be better than a nail. Orchestral tuners don`t want to know about sounds like that .Maybe a wooden clothes peg would make it easier to measure .

[John Cadd]

I received today a stranded steel tail loop to replace the nylon loop .The first impression out of the packet and before fitting is how very pliable it is .The nylon loops are always annoyingly stiff and fight to keep the tailpiece in the air when adding the strings. The screw adjusters on the steel turn freely without the nylon resistance. The steel outer surface is smooth and coated with a tough plastic .Now I have to ask what the designer of a Harp Tailpiece said about the afterlength .Somebody invented this art deco object but was there a patent that might give a clue.Apart from the afterlength measurement or tuning the steel tail loop might minimise damping coming from a nylon tai loop .
My complication is wth two violins I am using . One is a Medio Fino 3/4 . The other was a bit longer than standard which I altered by shortening the neck to give a vibrating length of 12 inches.That was purely to fit my hand span in first position .So the 3/4 has longer sounding strings than the larger violin .

[John Cadd]

For Devlinski --All the complications of fitting up a violin are well described in Mr Darnton`s book in the Fitting Up chapter .I know he does not approve of Harp Tailpieces but I was hoping for some test results that he might have tried. Seeing that they are becoming popular .
Interesting are the tips about how you tune up a set of strings and the care needed with E string tension . You can binge read all about that .