Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

Part of the problem with trying different style Guitar tuners is stressing the strings as they are fitted and slackened a few times. For some silly reason I bought some very cheap Alice synthetic strings to get past that stage . Well although I have used these very little I was surprised that the G string snapped today as I tuned it up . Replacing that was going well when the E string went. I had taken out the brass piece to make it a loop for the fine tuner that was still there . Within half an hour the D and A strings broke as well . 4 in one day is a record .

[John Cadd]

The sensible players who want standard wooden pegs will avoid the endless peg turning with the very slow gearing . There is little chance of avoiding that because the winding handles are obstructed by the scroll curves.Maybe that needs redesigning as well .I may set upon the winder with a hacksaw .
The peg design to hold the bevel gears has one product where the peg head encloses the shaft mechanism and there is no screw to come apart.
For wooden peg supporters there is peg paste that really behaves like paste . It is soft and easy to apply . The other sort is hard and difficult to manage . Apart from the lipstick design there is a round tin but the "paste" is hard and dried out like an old tin of shoe polish .There seems to be no easy way to manage wooden pegs . Is this yet another reason to call the violin the hardest instrument ?

[John Cadd]

The list of different guitar tuners and also mandolin tuners has now been exhausted . The hassle of finding what fits and how to arrange the peg angles is not something you want to suffer.
Some tuners have different screws to fix the gears.different lengths and thicknesses. Rollers are not always interchangeable .The end to fit the gear can be octagonal(most popular) but others are square ,oval (almost).star shaped like mini gears. Rollers can be too long or too short . Most need holes drilled in the right place and not at the ends .
Worst is the A string tuner peg that sticks out the most under the scroll .You may not like any concentrated pressure inside the violin case.
That sums up the problems you may find. Using any older products will leave you with replacement problems later on . Having said that ,the gears I have fitted work really well .
Normal wooden pegs need shaving down to the correct shape but Edgar Russ also is very wary of peg shavers .You may notice that if you see his videos .It`s all a bit like skating on thin ice .
Peg dope brands must be the way to settle the peg problems.Why are some hard and some soft? Why are some Liquid? These hassles just will not go away .

[John Cadd]

I nearly gave up the search until I saw some straight geared pegs on a 4 string guitar on ebay . It is a Telesforo Julve guitar which had wooden peg tuners . These are straight through the headstock .I think the original design is from Gotoh in Japan. They look like some friction types but these have gears inside .That is another slightly more expensive alternative that needs a wider hole to fit .Either £10 or £30 or £65 for a set of 4 .Cheaper might not be so reliable and they might all need cutting to size for thinner pegbox cheeks .
The other idea is to reassemble the right angled gear tuners to turn the bevels and gears around on the E and A side to pull the pegs back away from the scroll .That single A string tuner was a weak spot in the effective system with one peg poking out so far .
The cheap French violin I have been using had ghastly peg hole positions .The G peg was sloping uphill from left to right .Even so I had no need to widen the holes anywhere .

[John Cadd]

There is far less room to add anything near a violin scroll . I reversed the gear orientation on A and E strings,The pegs are nor nearer the player relative to the brass gears That brought the pegs into some symmetry (left and right).The pegs are parrallel to each other and there is room to use them without feeling cluttered . All the roller ends were cut to match the box width.
The only danger now is the peg rotation on G and D is opposite to the A and E.

[John Cadd]

Rubner is a well known string tuner maker .They make pairs of geared tuners for violins at £43 plus some postage . These are on decorative brass plates .They have the A string peg away from the player and it will poke down more than the scroll .It may not be a problem . The screws look fairly hefty. I was using a pilot hole drill of one mm thickess .The Rubners are thicker and they use more . But they have a nice look that could grow on you .Normal peg holes are not changed or enlarged.
One ukelele expert talking about traditional instruments with pegs that come through from the back says "You don`t want them to have Ears ! "

[John Cadd]

The ukelele model has been produced to fit violins and there is just one left in stock on the Amazon site. There is only one comment from a buyer that demands our attention.He says the tuner is Garbage. A close up picture shows it is only a friction control without gears.The friction basically relies on some kind of plastic or rubber ring which is compressed with a cross head screw.,The seller was so disgusted and said it was not worth returning it .That was a Grover model .If Gotoh made them with gears it would be worthwhile as the pegs would be in the same position as standard wooden pegs .
Something makes me think there could be some mileage in rebushing a scroll and fitting some good wooden pegs again .
Remember that there are several makers producing tuners for instruments like ukeleles and mandolins
which rely on a friction material similar to cardboard and which are utterly useless. That comes from luthiers who specialise in those instruments . Nice to know some people care about the players .

[Michael Darnton]

I don't know for sure, but I wonder if you maybe would get more feedback than you are here on this topic over at https://www.fiddlehangout.com/pages/default.asp
Most classical violinists are fine with traditional pegs, well fit and adjusted (!!), and don't see the need for improvement.
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[John Cadd]

Good advice Michael . I need to mention two drawbacks to what I worked out .
If you arrange the guitar pegs to be compact and as close to the scoll as possible you still have the peg ends poking down if you lay the violin in a modern case. Most modern lightweight cases are made of polystyrene and they have very little clearance above the bridge when you close the top. The velcro strap around the neck keeps the violin still ---but the case will not close properly with that A string peg jutting out . That is a deal breaker unless you want to start cutting holes and gluing . Don`t throw away your old coffin cases just yet . I asked one case maker how much clearance their cases have --above the bridge. They did not know .
That applies even more if you fit a pair of brass ,shaped plates with pairs of tuners .The A string peg juts out even further .
There we are .The old wooden peg technology fights back to dominance again. And if anyone asks --that`s one of the reasons .
A lesser problem with the string rollers and gear positions reversed on the A and E strings allows for compactness but forces you to tune the A and E in reverse directions . That is a bigger deal breaker. Old habits are hard to break and that one will be too hard .

[John Cadd]

The number of views indicates general interest in a topic. This has well over 100,000 views . Is it a serious problem?

[Michael Darnton]

No problem.. I suspect that a lot of those views are web crawlers, though. This is a pretty obscure site.

I more meant that the fiddle hangout crew would have more feedback, being less traditional.
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[John Cadd]

Yes I left out a mention of friction pegs that rely on two surfaces and a crosshead screw to adjust tension . Those fit sideways just like wooden pegs.
The web page shows they are Sold Out. Cheaper versions look the same but the friction material is like cardboard and are described as rubbish .
The lookalike planetary gear pegs still have questions about long term reliability . I think the topic has been exhausted by now .

[John Cadd]

A final roundup for guitar pegs on a violin. If you find the A string peg pokes down past the scroll it will be about 2 cms lower than the scroll . Inside a modern case 2cms under the scroll is enough to stop the case closing because the flat surface that hides the bow tips will be pressing down on the scroll top . An oblong case has the violin slanted and that flat surface cannot be cut away as the bow tip is just behind it .
I thought of an unlikely solution to keep the tuning pegs closer to the scroll outline.Instead of using 2 left (G and D ) and 2 right (E and A) just use 4 left tuners . That will force the left and right pegs to turn in opposite directions .But the mental trick is to think about thumb movements. Tuning up will see the thumb moving away from the pegbox.That works for both sides .
So the pegs should be no more than 1/4 inch lower than the scroll .

[John Cadd]

If the case used is shaped like a violin the bottom of the violin is near the end of the case and there is no obstruction above the scroll so the A string pegs will poke out about 2 cms below the peg and there is no problem ,It would be wise to add a foam pad under the scroll or neck to keep that peg safe. Some tuners have a screw in the peg end that holds the tuner together. That might be damaged or it might come loose .it`s better to look at that situation rather than ignore it .

[John Cadd]

I started to put this topic on Fiddle Hangout but it`s such a difficult site to navigate . I don`t especially advocate fitting guitar tuners but if the idea exists it`s probably because wooden pegs are too difficult to manage .That is either from humidity changes or lack of sharp tools to correct any faults . The Classical Violin Community would prefer silence and simply rely on trained luthiers and ignore the Hillbillies . So part of the wider violin community that don`t live in the Rich Man`s Game are left in the dark. That`s my impression .