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Lemuel
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Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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That truly clears up a question I've been having...how could those Hungarian gypsies pull out such beautiful sound out of violins that seemed so poorly kept, carrying them in "shabby old bags with a bow protruding from the top"..."They had been for many years subjected to every change of weather--and yet those poor instruments, when touched by the thyrsus of God of rhythm, respond as if they possessed in the grain of their wood a particle of that magic which gave to the Cremonias their golden tone".*
*References
1. Raggie Taggle, by Walter Starkie, John Murray, London, 1933.
2. Stage Fright its Causes and Cures, Kato Havas, Bosworth, 1973, page 13 |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Chad48309 wrote: | | What do you think about fitting a bridge to a top, or how specific changes in bridge mass and shape relate to changes in sound? Is it vastly different between tops that the bridge is being fitted to or is there some sort of method to it all? I've never been able to get really good clarification on this. My knowledge of it all stops at "it has an impact on sound." |
I'm not convinced that the fit has a whole lot to do with the sound, but that's something that's hard to tell. If you rub your finger across the bridge, you'll see that most sound is generated in the lateral direction. That's not really a direction that depends on contact as much as gross lateral action. With the post, fit is subtle and definite: a denser sound with a better fit. Perhaps something like that happens with the bridge to some extent, but it's very small and easily obscured.
I do know that if a bridge is leaning so much the feet hardly touch, a lot of density is lost--that, at least, is an easy experiment you can do to see the difference, immediately.
The front-back motion has to have some impact, and you can hear a very small difference in sound by moving a bridge tilted forward and back a very tiny amount (say, 1mm or 2mm) while keeping the feet in contact, only flexing the bridge slightly. But that effect is minute.
The most obvious effect of removing wood from the bridge is that the bridge is basically a mute, with the mute built in rather than hanging on top. The more wood you remove from the top half of the bridge, the less muted the sound. Eventually, the lack of muting changes into high-frequency noise, and the ideal is to stop removing wood before that happens. On the bottom, wood dampens volume. The range that works for a violin is huge, and not very discriminating: once you get the bottom thin enough, it won't get any louder. 4.5mm seems to work most of the time there.
Basically what I do when cutting a bridge is try to let as much music through while filtering out as much noise as possible. If a violin sounds dull, I'll remove wood from the middle and top, any way I can without sacrificing strength.
I don't think in terms of making one adjustment do everything. Some people try to make the bridge solve everything, some the post, etc. Every piece of the violin has an effect, on slightly different things, so I'll go to the piece that will make the most difference on what I want to change. For instance, tailpieces can have a big effect on how diffuse a sound is; if a violin has too much core, or too little, I'll try there first, rather than messing with bridge and post. Cellos, in particular, offer a lot of options in this direction, as well as having a lot of problems centered on diffuseness.
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: | | That truly clears up a question I've been having...how could those Hungarian gypsies pull out such beautiful sound out of violins that seemed so poorly kept, carrying them in "shabby old bags with a bow protruding from the top"..."They had been for many years subjected to every change of weather--and yet those poor instruments, when touched by the thyrsus of God of rhythm, respond as if they possessed in the grain of their wood a particle of that magic which gave to the Cremonias their golden tone". |
Perhaps they were just great musicians. There was a wonderful guitar player in my dorm; he was the best. He could play with a quarter or a matchbook, and had a $20 guitar painted with a red sunburst. It didn't matter. He really loved playing my neighbor's Martin, but that guitar didn't make him more of a musician, and it didn't help out the poor guy he borrowed it from, who could only play about 10% as well, in spite of owning the Martin.
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Lemuel
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Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Michael, something still bothers me though.
Why are there Baroque bridges? Obviously these bridges are supposed to give "Baroque sounds"... and same idea with Gamba bridges.
And...why do I hear so many great violinist still talk in terms of more "brighter" or "darker" sounds? For example in James Ehnes DVD where he compares a good number Strads and Guarneris?...even selecting different matching bows to avoid the sound being "too bright". |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Try a baroque bridge some time and see if that does that. They really don't--the baroque sound comes from elsewhere.
There will always be different inherent sounds to violins, sort of a zero point--that's inevitable, but for a player like Ehnes, he's speaking about very tiny differences. I bet if you offered to give him the violin he thinks is too bright, he'd take it in an instant, and he'd make it work. They didn't do the DVD so that he could stand there and say "They're all OK--what else do you want me to say?" :-)
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L P Reedy
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | Try a baroque bridge some time and see if that does that. They really don't--the baroque sound comes from elsewhere.
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Or try a spruce bridge. A few years ago I experimented with a simple design--no ankles, only an arch between the feet, a rough heart with no kidneys. The weight was adjusted to match the conventional bridge it was replacing, no other "tuning." The changes in sound were surprisingly small and often an improvement. But, of course, they didn't look right, so I quit playing around with them.
Lyle |
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ollieken
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Location: New Brunswick Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:42 am Post subject: Michel Darton |
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I seen a bridge on a fiddle last night that the bass side of the cutout under the kidney between the hip & the knee had a wedge must of been glued in I have seen that before on some fiddles now this one has a very good sound Any idea why that would be done
Thank you all for the reply`s Ken |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: |
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There are a lot of views about violins that border on religion, and one of them is that the width of the waist of a bridge is critical because it controls the rock of the top of the bridge. I was in a discussion with some folks by email and one said if this is so important, why is it common to glue or slide in an electronic pickup in on one side (where your wedge was glued) and it doesn't matter, which is a really good question. So several others and I tried gluing in wedges of wood there, and contrary to popular belief, it didn't destroy the sound of the violin, which changed very little from having done that.
A lot of this stuff, someone does some small thing, and in the process messes up some big thing unintentionally (like where the bridge is sitting), and then, forever, they believe that the small thing made the change and continue to insist it's necessary. A lot of violins sound great for a while after only having the bridge taken off for five minutes and then put back on, so you have to be careful how much you believe that the change is due to some scraping you did while it was off.
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Lemuel
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Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | Try a baroque bridge some time and see if that does that. They really don't--the baroque sound comes from elsewhere.
There will always be different inherent sounds to violins, sort of a zero point--that's inevitable, but for a player like Ehnes, he's speaking about very tiny differences. I bet if you offered to give him the violin he thinks is too bright, he'd take it in an instant, and he'd make it work. They didn't do the DVD so that he could stand there and say "They're all OK--what else do you want me to say?"  |
Ok then, the part on Ehnes speaking about tiny differences I understand.
For baroque bridges, I'll try it as soon as I get a chance. What is the meaning of them if they make no difference....marketing hype? Cosmetics? They have different shape and different cut outs, and...
if this makes no difference, then surely the cut outs and shapes of existing non-baroque bridges are arbitrary. Is there any history on how the original design of standard bridges came about? Any references? The interesting and artistic shapes of the kidneys and heart...surely someone must have had to try thousands of experiments, to come up with this design, if there is any physics or science involved. |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think the jump to a "modern" bridge was relatively fast, IF it didn't exist from the very start. There is a purported original del Gesu bridge which is virtually modern. The few Cremonese bridges we know from that period are almost entirely the Strad ones, which are obviously decorative, and may not be an accurate model of what was commonly used, but they have become the modern model for a baroque bridge.
From my own experience setting up baroque instruments, I don't really agree with the author's attribution of tonal changes, but here's a discussion with photos: http://www.orpheon.org/oldsite/seiten/education/Bridges.htm
Baroque players use "baroque" bridges for the same reason they like period pegs--an accurate portrayal of the period's instrument. It doesn't have to be a tonal thing. For instance, if they're also playing in period costumes, that isn't tonal. :-)
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Mat Roop
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
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Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | ....The most obvious effect of removing wood from the bridge is that the bridge is basically a mute, with the mute built in rather than hanging on top. The more wood you remove from the top half of the bridge, the less muted the sound. Eventually, the lack of muting changes into high-frequency noise, and the ideal is to stop removing wood before that happens. On the bottom, wood dampens volume. The range that works for a violin is huge, and not very discriminating: once you get the bottom thin enough, it won't get any louder. 4.5mm seems to work most of the time there....... |
Michael... how would you describe the difference between muting and damping... not sure that I would recognize the difference.
Thanks, Mat |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure there's a difference. The main reason I use the word mute in this instance is so that you can connect to the idea that a mute can be added to the top of a bridge or it can be built into the top with wood, but that the same thing is going on, either way.
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Lemuel
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Joined: 12 Aug 2010
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Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | I think the jump to a "modern" bridge was relatively fast, IF it didn't exist from the very start. There is a purported original del Gesu bridge which is virtually modern. The few Cremonese bridges we know from that period are almost entirely the Strad ones, which are obviously decorative, and may not be an accurate model of what was commonly used, but they have become the modern model for a baroque bridge.
From my own experience setting up baroque instruments, I don't really agree with the author's attribution of tonal changes, but here's a discussion with photos: http://www.orpheon.org/oldsite/seiten/education/Bridges.htm
Baroque players use "baroque" bridges for the same reason they like period pegs--an accurate portrayal of the period's instrument. It doesn't have to be a tonal thing. For instance, if they're also playing in period costumes, that isn't tonal. |
This is new to me...awesome. Thanks Michael. |
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