Violin Forum/Message Board

Andy Gamble

I've noticed that Michelman varnish, Fulton propolis soap ground, and usually madder lake all use basically the same process: put stuff (rosin, propolis, madder root) in lye solution, precipitate with alum solution. I have several questions regarding these methods and alternatives thereto.

1) I'd like to try using Fulton's ground under Michelman's varnish, but use the same resin for both to simplify the process. I would expect that in the ground, rosin could be directly substituted for the propolis to satisfactory effect. Is this so?

2) Using rosin in varnish seems to be frowned upon these days, apparently due to its brittleness and tendancy to show scratches. Does the rosin maintain such downfalls in the form of Michelman's rosinates, or does that procedure produce a more resilient varnish?

3) What resins would be likely to work in both applications? Damar, Manilla copal, Congo copal, myrrh, frankinsence, rosin?

4) Would the Fulton ground work to fill pores in open-pore wood like mahogany, walnut, rosewood, etc?

I actually make guitars, not violins, so I'll be using a lot more varnish than most. I am also a college student. As such, I would like to avoid anything at or above the price range of propolis. A guitar varnish should be a bit harder that a violin varnish. It also needs to polish to a high gloss, and take somewhat of a beating. It should be something along the lines of clear in color, though a bit of amber color would be fine. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Andres Sender · Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject:

My advice would be: don't use violin varnish. Smile

Seriously there are so many viable guitar finishes why complicate things unnecessarily, ESPECIALLY when you, as a student, presumably don't have much spare time?

In the violin world varnish is a huge issue because recreating colors and wear characteristics is highly valued, not to mention the widely held (but often very different) beliefs about tone.
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Andy Gamble · Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:42 pm Post subject:

Andy Gamble · Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:49 pm Post subject:

Okay, let me rephrase the question:

Does anybody here have any experience, theory, or reasonably educated guess regarding either making Michelman's varnish with something other than rosin, or making Fulton's ground with something other than propolis?

Andres Sender · Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject:

Hi Andy. I don't have any real help for you, but FWIW I have not heard of anyone using alternate materials in these methods. If one were going to experiment in that direction I suppose you could try damar. I more often hear of people having trouble with the Michelman recipes than succeeding with them FWIW.

Shellac, by itself, has the potential to be a very nice ground with good chatoyance. If pumice is interfering with that you might try a trick I used once on a lute: I used clear micro-balloons from a hobby store as a fill for pecan wood by mixing it up with very thick shellac. The resulting effect was translucent pores with a normal shellac look on the rest of the wood, I was very pleased with it.
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FiddleDoug · Member Joined: 08 Sep 2007 Posts: 227 Location: Hilton, NY

I don't have personal experience with this, but I've heard that it can go really bad on instruments after about 10 years or so. Making oil varnish can also be quite dangerous. Why not use a commercial product? Some makers have been using ACE Spar Varnish with good results.

http://www.acehardware.com/paintHub/product.jsp?c=Ace&p=stain&productId=033
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Andy Gamble · Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject:

Heh, that's funny. I can actually get an employee discount on Ace spar varnish: my father works at an Ace hardware store. I'll definitely try that, but I still want to experiment with making oil varnish.

As I understand it, using cooked oil in the Michelman varnish (as well as proper production and application) may help with some of the long-term stability issues.

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

[i]"I don't have personal experience with this, but I've heard that it can go really bad on instruments after about 10 years or so."[/i]

I used it years ago for a while and quickly abandoned it... the problem I encountered (aside from the extreme fragility of the varnish) was that in order to get the color density usually desired the coats had to be quite thick. Then they the varnish start to wrinkle...

Andy Gamble · Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:49 am Post subject:

Well, color density is not a problem here. We'll see about fragility.

violinarius · Member Joined: 14 Dec 2007 Posts: 171

I know of many a top maker who have researched and made varnish thousands of times looking for that ideal varnish, so if you want to take the first step in a long journey, then I would suggest that you dive right in, but for the amateur maker, there are a lot of easy ways to get the job done rather satisfactorily, and even the pros use professionally made varnish.

Here are some nice links to varnish.

http://www.violinvarnish.com/

http://www.classicalvarnish.com/index.html

http://www.classicalvarnish.com/Publications.html

Our host for the forum:

http://www.violins.ca/varnish/violin_varnish_recipes.html

http://www.violins.on.ca/varnish.html