Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

If you ever felt tempted to make the Guarnerius in the Heron-Allen book with the gloriously lopsided sound holes you may just wonder where the bridge feet should be.
If the bridge has to be between the nicks,------which nicks?
If you take the treble side inner nick as the best one you need the bridge to straddle that line across the belly. The feet when they sit squarely on top of the line give a sounding string length of 13 inches with a vertical back bridge.
Well that`s my version of an awkward puzzle set by Mr G.
Generally ,the bridge feet instructions for your average violin give conflicting positions to choose from. Some just above the centre nick line. Others just below that line .Then again,some sitting right on top of the line.
One of the areas that can be confusing.

[Dave Chandler]

As a player, I'd want the bridge square and centered at the stop. Otherwise your string lengths vary and intonation suffers. I think string length should be the overriding requirement in determining the position.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[John Cadd]

That`s right Dave and along with this little puzzle is the difficulty of explaining it. When you say square and centred at the stop.That could be confusing.Square as in across the belly or square vertical to the belly.Centred at the stop---You have to define the stop.Then you have to define centred.It sounds silly and I don`t mean to sound picky.
I think straddled gives no room for doubt.BTW Did you agree with thirteen inches as the sounding length? Do most players know straight off exactly what their best length is?
I looked up the best way to cut a bridge today. Some mention grain and then you find they mean the long speckly pattern on the back of the bridge.The grain is on the edges.
I thought the back was meant to be parrallel to the "grain" but one site turns it round and puts that at the front,towards the fingerboard.
Their reason is that it is less likely to bend. They use the word "speckly" but is their speckly the same as my speckly?
The best thing to do is compare all the different ways and then look at the reasons.
Heron -Allen mentions trimming the little pointy bits on the bridge.
The reason he gives to trim them is to avoid snagging your clothes.The modern reason is to tune the way it vibrates.

[John Cadd]

One extra snippet about the Del Gesu Kreisler (Strad poster) used as a comparison .The bridge marks seem to have been scratched on and the bridge sits sqarely on top of ( 60% above and 40 % below ) the line between the inner nicks. See what I mean about possible confusion ? One or two Strad instruments on the posters give a choice of positions as they are not always level either.

[Dave Chandler]

I don't see the confusion. Square to the centerline from nut to tailpin and centered over that line, whether its an imaginary line, or the seam. The nicks are just reference points, you need to determine what they represent. If the "f" holes are lopsided, and the nicks don't correspond to the stop length, then ignore them. It was always my perception that players expect the traditional string length (330mm) and stop length (195mm).

It sounds like 60%/40% is pretty darn close to being centered on the inner nicks, which usually represent the stop.

It seems if the pressure is even over the feet, however you decide to cut the bridge, it should be centered (lengthwise with the violin) over the stop. I've heard various theories, tried movng the bridge forward and back, and I believe the differences that I found were more likely due to the position of the bridge relative to the sound post.

If string length and stop don't coincide, as a player, I'd prefer string length be the determining factor as to where the bridge goes. Better to play in tune and sacrifice some near imperceptible tonal issues.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[Dave Chandler]

I took a look at the plate VI in the back of the book, I see what you mean. As this is a drawing, it may be simply an editing error?

I ran into some similar problems with a Messiah blueprint I have, with one side of the lower bout about 4mm wider than the other. I decided to make my mould symetrical, but had to flip a coin to see which side I'd use.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[ollieken]

Dave
I have a strad lable is Faciebat 1713 made in chechoslovakia The nicks are 12 1/2 from the nut the body is 14 5/8 from the button do you think I should move the bridge back to 13 inch !/2 inch past the nicks & the sound post . What would put the sadddle of the tail piece at 55 mm as well . it has a good sound plucking the strings but kind of tin sound with the bow it wants to bog down not a strong sound dont know how else to explain it Ken

[John Cadd]

Dave I was thinking of new makers who had no experience of the way Guarnerius would move his holes around.When I made mine I had assembled all the important measurements onto a board and all measurements were written on that.The writing style of the book is a bit of a nightmare.You have to sift out which bits were meant to be followed and which read purely from interest.The American version is re -written but I have only seen the English edition so there you may have an advantage.I have always found with text books of any sort that American books are much clearer in their explanations.(Also Australian textbooks.If you ever want to really understand wood turning get an Australian book).
I always hated words like former and latter.Another Heron -Allen habit was referring to diagrams which were on another page.It ends up like a crossword puzzle.By the way one of my favourite writers was Charles Dickens so it`s not as if I was completely unprepared for the writing style.
You slightly shocked me by thinking the sound holes were a printer`s error.What you see is what you get with Guarnerius. Check out some photographs of the great man`s instruments. The writer does refer to the lopsided design.I couldn`t pin down his reference for that. Charles Beare refers to the f-hole wings as Hatchet shaped. Lovely phrase!
Ollieken -- Strad ,as far as I know never made any violins in Czechoslovakia.You know there are thousands of copies and a label is really easy to copy. Your violin sounds a little longer than the standard 14 inches.I was confused by the measurements you gave.If you can check the position of the bassbar this should pass just under the bridge foot.The bassbar is fitted at a slant to the centre line.Try to work back from that piece of information.The width of your bridge will show where it will end up.Take a look at lots of violin photographs to get a feel for the right position.
Some player with short fingers might have tried to shorten the string length but this would not help the sound quality.
Sound post hardness or softness (and position) will affect the sound quality.
Read everything about bridge shaping and fitting and good luck.

[Dave Chandler]

If you have moved the bridge to meet the standard string length, then you must also move the soundpost.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[ollieken]

Hi Dave & Amezcua Thank you for the reply (Dave) I took your advice & Made the string length 13 inches or 330mm & I made a new sound post & moved it back.The Middle of the bridge now sits about 5-6 mm behind the nicks The tail piece saddle is about 55mm to centre of bridge .It plays ok now
should have new strings
Amezcua I know about the lables I was not heading for the bank I have another one made in Germany You have a good idea about the base bar &
the bridge foot I do that with the sound post Thanks again Ken

[John Cadd]

Ollieken Did you check all the bridge measurements?.There are some terrific results if you get it just right.I improved the sound post setter today.The point was a clumsy thick shape.I ground it much flatter and sharper.It was really easy to position.I use a tiny 9 volt bulb for lighting inside.The bulb is about 1/8 inch thick and soldered on a wire with earthing sleeving. The bulb is very cool running.You can hold it in your hand.Pick up a few in the electronics shop.Very cheap.

[ollieken]

Amezcua Thanks for the reply
I have all the data on bridge cutting as we all know every violin -fiddle will not
respond the same no mater if you cut the bridge the same way every time .
I have one fiddle that I cut a pile of bridges & changed strings I could have put it the stove at times then one day by chance i bought a set of Thomastik Prazision strings (Medium) love the old fiddle now .
I use a Mini Flex LED It has a sharp bright light & you can put it in the round holes of the F I Got it at (princess auto) . You can check it on the net
May not be a store in your area . Ken

[John Cadd]

Ollieken
Do you use the light to help with the fit of the ends of the soundpost? When I look through the end pin hole and move the light bulb around near the end of the post you can sometimes see a chink of light that shows there is a tiny gap .(using the shadow).
What sort of edge does your setter have? Mine started off quite thick.
The edge itself was OK but just back a bit it was very chunky.I hollow ground it on a sanding belt so you don`t split the grain open.
The tip pointing downwards is the most important part, I think.With the soundpost vertical , the bottom tip of the blade ( inside the post) is lower than the edge of the tiny slit that it`s jammed in.That difference gives an ability to pull the post back towards the treble soundhole without the blade coming loose. That means you need to press the setter into the post when the post is lying flat and as you press down push towards the bottom of the post. (got all that?)
Place the soundpost on the back first and pull the post-top into position while keeping some downward pressure to let the tip do it`s work.
Before you attack the soundpost with the blade get out a sheet of paper and draw a scale sketch of the violin cross-section. Put the soundpost "in position" and also lay the setter down so you can work out the best place to insert the blade in the post.
You need to avoid scraping the edges of the holes.The post needs to be at the best angle relative to the setter and violin.
Do you think it is a safe idea to let go of the setter when the post has some grip to check vertical alignment from the side view?
That`s what I do.
If the top of the post needs moving back from the bridge position the left hand should hold the top of the setter and a firm hold (right handed) near the belly will give a good controlled tug back towards the end pin. It sounds awkward as the left hand is crossing over the right hand.
The two positions for me to check all the lineup of the post are down on one knee peering through the end hole with a magnifying glass,and looking down into the hole from the side.
You probably know all that but lots of readers may like a run through in detail. Something to argue about too.
I had an idea about restricting the soundpost fitting in the early stages. work out where you need the post first.Then fit two pieces of thin stiff cardboard inside the sound holes.
These will run in one hole and out the other.Fold the outer pieces flat and sellotape them down.That will be a guide for the top of the post when it is "loose" before it has a chance to wander off at the wrong angle. Is sellotape a violin friendly substance?
My post setter is a GEWA alloy one.It`s very hard metal and the edges where they stamp out the shape are rough when you buy it.
I smoothed the edges with a diamond sharpener (thats when I found how hard it was. If you go to the electronics shop get some "Heat Shrink Sleeving" to fit over the setter.This will pull tight if you hold it over the Gas flame. (not too close).That will save the precious edges of the f-holes.
All that may help a newbie from wrecking his/her first masterpiece.
The wikipedia diagram for tone control is very useful .

[John Cadd]

I forgot on thing.When the post is in place (not too tight,remember) ,do a gentle vertical wiggly movement to release the setter from the post. Job done!

[John Cadd]

While I remember,I only used the pointed blade in this job.The other end was not used at all.