Violin Forum/Message Board

[kel]

Jack , pls don't laugh

Making of 1st violin has started already but very slowly
1) don't have time every day to enjoy the making
2) don't have adequate tools
3) some hrs are reserved for playing violin

I only have
1) several different sizes planer
2) one power planer
3) 2 clamps
4) a long steel ruler
5) some drills
6) hide glue
7) books
template
9) several sets of tone wood
10) one gouge
......

what i need urgently is a bench to work on, a vise, band saw

looks a bit funny as i have almost nothing to start with
lots of time still involved in shopping tools

this moment i am trying to join 2 pieces of spruce and on the other hand, trying to hollow the back piece, it is a piece of really hard wood (it's a one piece , i don't need to join)


is a Jig saw useless?
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Newbie Maker Kelvin

[Jack H.]

More useful than a power planer! if you do not have a band saw.
Power tools are not a necessity in violin making.
You need to get some good Japanese stones to sharpen your tools on when you get them.

[kel]

today tried another 3 hrs to plane

1) power planer is almost USELESS
2) best tool is a sharp and large jointer

i don't have 100% perfect fit if hold the 2 pieces to light, the imperfection locates at the end which i'd cut away so i don't care about it anymore, won't consider to re-plane again as i m afraid it would get worse rather than improvement

TOTAL I spent 7 hrs in my first try to join the 2 pieces of spruce.
I assume more difficulty would be ahead when joining the hard maple back

Next step is try to glue with Hide glue.
As a newbie, i have no tools/pots or anything to prepare, absolutely start with nothing.
My tools i think useful : a old clothes iron, small used cooking pot, soup can, brush, used spoon.


Do i have to clamp the 2 pieces for some hours after applying glue?
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Newbie Maker Kelvin

[byacey]

Don't use a metal container or brush for glue. The iron in it will discolor the glue.
Just to save you some frustration or misunderstanding, when we were discussing power planers, jointers etc., what I was talking about was a 6" powered floor model jointer, not a hand held power plane. Hand helds are only good for rough removal from bottoms of doors and other non-critical jobs.

[kel]

i am talking about handheld power planer
agree with u, handheld power planer useful for rough removal

i did try very hard, did it slowly and very carefully with a hand held power planer to get a dead flat sides for joining. I just failed after hours of trial
_________________
Newbie Maker Kelvin

[byacey]

Do you have enough wood left after all that effort? You are best off using a good quality hand plane with a long sole, and a razor sharp blade. It's important to start the push stroke with the sole flat on the wood, and remaining flat and square during the whole length of the cut.

[mikemolnar]

I use a cheap import 6" jointer. I sharpen the blades often and run it at the highest speed. I often check that the fence is square. I also wear ear muffs because it sounds like a jet turbine.

I do not apply any down force while I slowly run the pieces through. Such forces seem to get what is called snipe - a dig at the end of the piece. Be gentle and let the machine do the work.

First I clean up the two edges separately. Then I run the two plates through together. I check that the joint is light tight. Redo if needed. Be gentle.

I use a rubbed joint - no clamps - no gaps - no seam.

Clamps seem to do more damage than good.

Mike

[Jack H.]

[actonern]

what do you mean by clamps do more damage than good?

Jack I too was interested in that line...

To me the idea of a rubbed joint has always been a bit of a violin makers' affectation.

I suppose a perfectly prepared joint might easily be glued that way, but there is so much more security to using clamps... and its not like they're that expensive!

E

[violinarius]

Rub joints work with hide glue because there is no 'glue line' between the two pieces of wood.
Since you have perfect wood to wood contact, a clamp would only keep the joint intact if it were accidentally bumped, otherwise the suction from rubbing the joint will be enough.
I like to apply glue, rub the joint, and then break it apart, and re-apply more glue for a final rub. This way I ensure good penetration of the hide glue.

[actonern]

Does anyone do a rub glue-up on their fingerboard/neck joint?

[Dave Chandler]

I glue both surfaces lightly, then rub the fingerboard onto the neck, and let it set without clamps pressing the fingerboard down. I watch closely for a few minutes, otherwise the fingerboard seems to want to slide around a bit. If its a good match on the surfaces before gluing, it'll be just fine without clamping. If you have to clamp it, you probably needed to have it better mated before.

For joining neck, I do two things. I have a big 1" wide rubber band that I strap around the garland (ribs). I slip the band behind the button temporarily, and as soon as I've applied glue to the neck and the mortise, I slip the neck into place, pull the band from behind the button onto the heel of the neck. This gives me good constant pressure pulling the neck into the body, and frees up both hands to apply a C-clamp the neck from above the fingerboard to the back of the button. I use a C-clamp on which I've glued pads of leather and a layer of rubber. The leather makes sure I don't leave any mars in the wood, the rubber keeps it from moving from its position.

The only problem with using a large rubber band around the garland, if its not flat and wide, you could conceivably cave in a rib, so just a word of caution on that approach. The rubber band I'm using is a very elastic band used by moving companies to keep pads in place around furniture. I've simply tied a knot to get the circumference that works good for me.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[actonern]

Michael Darnton's post on another forum, dealing with rub joints vs. clamping...

"...Either works, but the rubbed joint is much more fussy. I've done both, but usually try for a joint that would work as rubbed joint, with a clamp on it for my peace of mind."

[kel]

did an experiment with the hide glue joining 2 pieces of straight wood 16" long taken from used Ikea furniture, wood surfaces don't have dead flat surface

tried the rubbing method without clamp

after one night's drying, and test the strength of joint

wow, VERY STRONG!, can't separate with bare hands trying to pull them apart;

tried again to pull them apart with bare hands --- > unsuccessful
clamped one and put weight on the other piece, 5kg, 10kg, 20kg ---> still intact
2 pieces were glued to a L shape, another try , put it on ground, step on it with one foot gently, no change: OK then I carefully balance my body and step on it 2 foot together almost with my whole body weight pressing on it --------
---------
--------
-------->what result you'd suppose?
_________________
Newbie Maker Kelvin

[kel]

applied glue to join the 2 pieces of spruce
better to use a clamp to fix the spruce position and to stop it sliding

see after a night's drying time whether i can get a strong joint or not tomorrow
_________________
Newbie Maker Kelvin