Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

I think Francescatti was superb . Apart from tone he had a very masculine style which I like . You could sense more freedom in his playing .I don`t know if Rostal was top of the tree for interpretations but he made his instrument sound wonderful . I have only heard a few Rostal pieces but not enough to get any negatives , but if other players have recorded Gaglianos I will be very interested .If you see (hear ) any demonstrations of violins they always choose a fast scratchy piece that hardly demonstrates the sound of the violin . Rostal was based in England and so much internet material favours anyone American . A European violin genius is almost bound to meet a brick wall if he (or she ) has a difficult name to spell .
Similarly the Strad /Guarneri duo tends to eclipse other very great makers .The name seems to be more important the sound, It may be a Media Man influence .
Another article last week mentioned the pecking order which American luthiers have been saddled with. This time they suffer because anything with an Italian flavour or label ends up first in the queue regardless of how outstanding the USA violins are . They have to stand behind the other Europeans too . All very illogical .

[John Cadd]

A good example of a lost violinist is Laszlo Szentgyorgyi. He was jewish Hungarian and concertmaster of the Budapest orchestra .He was a pupil of Hubay and died in 1964. I found his vinyl recording on youtube of the Paganini Moses variations . Technically if you compare him to Perlman or Oistrakh they are demoted to advanced student standard . The Moses piece is a bit scratchy so try the youtube for Zapateado where you hear the violin properly .
I would class his bowing at the same level as Joseph Hassid .
Some of his vinyl records are on ebay (buy it now at about £130 ). There is also a digital renovation of one of his youtube recordings.That`s a bit tinny but interesting .

[Oleg Vostyakov]

[John Cadd]

The odd thing about Hungarian names is Laszlo is not that unusual even for non Hungarians (I nearly said Westerners). But Szentgyorgyi is probably as common in Hungary as Bill Smith is in England .
I know very little about Hubay but have a feeling he was a very important figure in violin history. Hungarian musicians seem to be classed as Gypsy Fiddlers but that must fall way short of the reality .

[John Cadd]

For Oleg Vostyakov I vaguely remember the Janito comment from long ago but I am mystified about your question .
Janito asks about my thesis . It`s not a thesis in my mind . It`s just a question that occurred to me and then I tried to fill in the gaps .
-----
I thought forums were a good place to ask a question but now I`m not so sure . .......
Anyone else is free to add a perspective and improve on the question .
Interference also happens in air waves inside instruments . The thickness plans have been copied and used by well known makers using lots of technology but they are not offering any explanations about how the thickness patterns work . It seems odd that they spend money on this without showing curiosity about how it physically operates . As long as normal physical laws are not replaced by Magic we can learn something new. But copying is good if it works . If it stops there that`s not too much of a problem . Just a pity that it stops .

[John Cadd]

I suppose the topic looks like a thesis but that sounds a bit too grand for me .
We all know about the patterns made by tea leaves when a plate is held over a speaker . That`s an indicator of modes . Somebody must have tested that before assembling an exact replica of a famous Strad . But I have not heard about it . So here`s another possible thesis; they must have discovered something useful and decided to keep it a secret. How unusual would a secret be in the violin world ? That may be the way to survive in a difficult profession. Contrast that with a video showing a very personable lady player demonstrating a new violin and bow in a case for under $80 .It may be $180 but regardless of that how would luthiers survive at all if that was the competition ?
But back to the thickness topic . Has any research shown that varying thicknesses in violin plates have absolutely no effect on the sound . Plenty of makers in Texas might disagree . There is a very coy video about that without them saying too much . Let`s call that a bit of secrecy and a touch of Magic . The Magic or Mystery comes from lots of electronic gizmos used for the testing .

[Michael Darnton]

Oh, it is absolutely true that makers often don't tell what they know. For an example of when they do and why they don't go look at the last few pages of the curtate cycloid thread where you seem to absolutely refuse to hear what I'm saying. How much of that do you think a maker should get before he just gives up and keeps what he knows to himself?

Many of us have made many experiments. I know that when I try to tell about mine what I mostly get is instant rejection of my actual experiments from people who themselves haven't done their own but know better than I do and are ready to tell me why I'm wrong. It is very common for this to happen and that's why I enjoy teaching beginners who have no ideas at all and have come to listen.
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[John Cadd]

I don`t remember refusing to hear about curtate cycloids .Part of learning is discussing back and forth to sort out the differences from what I learned before. Maybe a few examples land outside the curtate rules (or laws ). I think that last sentence may have come out wrong. It`s a sensitive subject .Oh no now that might have come out wrong . Robust reasoned argument is the way to go . Makers get into their own habits . Habits are very hard to change . Anything in the mind is hard to change . And why did the Strad poster for Alessandro Gagliano have no arch diagrams ? At least I have the top and back heights. (Not from them ). Thin pickings from Strad Magazine .

[Michael Darnton]

Robust, reasoned arguments can only happen between people who are equally informed.
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[Oleg Vostyakov]

[John Cadd]

Well Mr Darnton you can see in the very first post on this topic I mentioned a question I asked my Geography teacher when I was 13 years old ; "Was the East coast of America ever joined to the West coast of Europe ?" and his answer was
"Oh John , don`t be so stupid"
He was a Cambridge educated teacher.
Now if this forum is designed to exclude all amateurs that`s what you need to say .The Violin Forum --Professionals Only . Sorted .

[Oleg Vostyakov]

[John Cadd]

Hello Oleg Do you mean playing or making violins ? Teachers are expensive but you can learn a lot from youtube videos . There is one run by Itzak Perlman
but I think you have to pay something . If you ask they might help you more . The Violinist ,com site will give you lots of help . Or try all the violin sites you can until you find the right one .Follow the instructions . Use a mirror to get the right posture . All sorts of things to keep you busy . The Violinist site has a blog to help new players ;A visual guide to keys and scales . Good luck .
This forum is not so busy . They should look after you .

[John Cadd]

Getting back to the subject of interference in violin plates there is an important feature of violin plates that needs to be examined. Some plates are graduated "Normally". That means the plate starts at one thickness under the bridge feet and then reduces in thickness towards the edge. The other system is "Reverse " graduation where the plates are thinner at the centre and then become thicker again but reduce again as the vibrations move towards the edge. That`s the general description .
But Back plates do not follow that system because there is only one main source of vibration ,which is the soundpost .
The belly plate has two main vibration sources. As the vibrations radiate across the plate they will interact . This is likely to reduce into a positive and negative combination which will give maybe a 50% result in sound volume. That`s just a guess . But Reverse graduation tends to separate the two sources .They will still radiate across each other but each vibration crossing the centre line will weaken as it changes through the thinner section into the thicker section. The difference in thickness is very small but it`s enough to make a difference. Strad and Guarneri have worked that out already.
That slight change in thickness is partly disregarded . The purpose of this is not talked about much .
If you look at the Plowden thickness map it has an ideal separation shape where the treble side has a smaller area and the bass side with the dominant bass bar has a larger area. The thinner patch makes a clean separation .
You can test three examples of wooden panels . (1) A plain piece all at one thickness. (2) A piece with a thinner patch across the centre.(3) A piece with a thicker patch across the centre.
If each piece is vibrated at one side what will happen to the energy as the vibration begins ? Will all the plates give identical results ? How much difference in thickness will have an effect?

[John Cadd]

Some makers talk endlessly about Mode Patterns . Carleen Hutchins did lots of work on that subject. Some makers are losing interest in the subject. If a mode pattern forms at one particular frequency it sounds like all violins have to be made in one exact way .But Guarneri made some very thick plates that still work very well .He was not limited to one measurement for his plate thickness. There does not seem to be any special benefit in matching a top plate to a back plate . These are comments from established makers .I only read what they write . It`s interesting whether we agree or disagree .
Modes discussions seem to limit the ideas about vibration and channel everything along one strict railway line . Have all the best violins ever made been tested with tea leaves to prove these theories ? Did Carleen alter any ancient violins to make them fit the theories ? Sacconi had a go at physically changing several Strads . He tells us that in his book .
One Ferdinand Gagliano was examined recently ( Ingles and Hayday )and it had not been altered at all . The plates were as thick as the Guarneri Cannon . Tea leaves were not mentioned in the report .