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dixydarling
Junior Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2013
Posts: 4
Location: United States
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 Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:01 pm Post subject: Restoring a (worthless) 1914 violin |
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Just bought a "Made in Nippon" Suzuki violin on ebay for a VSO price. Playing it out of the box, I made my own skin crawl. Terrible, terrible sounds.
http://www.ebay.com/...cvip=true&rt=nc
I want to make it playable on a budget. Some guidance from you experts throughout the process would be so much appreciated! Please help me.
I won't take it to a luthier. It is a worthless violin to start with, so I'm not destroying anything. Besides, I want to learn something.
It has all the parts, but someone with woodglue and sandpaper got to it. They "fixed" a 2 inch long crack in the bottom by the chinplate, smeared woodglue everywhere in the process. Actually, it looks pretty straight. I don't have a lot of clamps so, after successfully dissolving the excess smears of glue with vinegar, I'm tempted to leave it as is. Honestly, I might do worse trying to take it all apart. Thoughts?
The sandpaper took it down to the bare wood in spots, so I think it needs to be stripped and finished. There are visible multidirectional scratches from some coarse sandpaper. Can I scrape those out? Sand with fine paper? Or just leave them.
I was thinking of:
strip with citristrip
suntan the wood for a month (is this necessary on 100 year old wood?)
tea stain (will this burn the wood?)
distilled egg white coat to seal the poor sanded wood pores
2 coats alcohol-thinned Bulls Eye amber shellac to complete the ground
a few coats of turpentine-thinned linseed oil, hand-applied, maybe with some Japan drier.
Then I'll have to repaint the purfling...like I said, it's worthless to begin with. However, I am determined to try! I really appreciate any helpful suggestions. |
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ctviolin
Super Member
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 961
Location: Roswell
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Restoring a (worthless) 1914 violin |
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| dixydarling wrote: | Playing it out of the box, I made my own skin crawl. Terrible, terrible sounds.
I want to make it playable on a budget. Some guidance from you experts throughout the process would be so much appreciated! Please help me.
I'm tempted to leave it as is. Honestly, I might do worse trying to take it all apart. Thoughts?
The sandpaper took it down to the bare wood in spots, so I think it needs to be stripped and finished. There are visible multidirectional scratches from some coarse sandpaper. Can I scrape those out? Sand with fine paper? Or just leave them.
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I'll bite - but realize this is simply my opinion about such violins.
Sorry, the picture no longer pulls up.
Yes you might do well fixing it as is, without exactly stripping and refinishing - it would be nice to see a picture. It'd be an easier call.
Regarding course sandpaper &/or scraping the plates... If the wood was left thick (as many student violins were) then you can "re-surface" it if you want.
Other wise, if it is "properly thicknessed" or close (in the general ballpark) to begin with, thinning it further probably won't really help it's sound get any better.
I will add that most violins I have dealt with, that are like what you are describing - USUALLY I'm not interested in refinishing fully. Usually I just work with what's left - depending.
But usually I WILL start off fitting new (ebony) pegs if, the old ones are not useable - go to a new (Aubert perhaps?) bridge - a decent set of strings (Dominants maybe?) check the nut for proper string alignment and height, correct the new bridge height and spread, then make sure the nut fits correctly or replace it (no sloppy fit allowed on any of the parts).
You will have to make a new sound post and fit it correctly - which information can be found on-line.
I'm willing to bet that if the violin is a standard old commercial violin - properly (in general) made, like very many older commercial violins were, and doesn't have something like a loose bass bar or something similar, and not immediately seen, it will wind up with at least a decent tone...
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pmccombs
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Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 87
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Restoring a (worthless) 1914 violin |
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| dixydarling wrote: | | Playing it out of the box, I made my own skin crawl. Terrible, terrible sounds. |
Check that the top and back plates are still glued to the ribs all around and that no seams have opened up.
A new sound post could make a huge difference, and of course fresh strings.
Your re-varnishing plan sounds thoughtful. If you search the forum I think there is some discussion on tea stain. I haven't done that before. I like to use gamboge as my ground, maybe over a dark analine dye if I want to pop the grain a little more. When I varnish, I usually put down a base coat for the color, then layer several clear coats over the top. The clear coats are for polishing down later. |
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R Mac
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Joined: 05 Mar 2013
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Location: Near Phily USA
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dixydarling
Junior Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2013
Posts: 4
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for all the responses! You've been very kind and encouraging!
I decided to go ahead with the refinish while I wait on the new bridge and strings and such to get here in the mail.
Update: the scratches disappeared in the citristrip, which also raised the grain a bit (which I wanted). 2 coats took me down to the bare wood in spots where it had been sanded by the previous owner.
I found some more information on tea-staining, courtesy of old posts from Manfio and Dave Chandler. The trick seems to be apply and reapply through layers of ground, and maybe ammonia fumigation to react with the tea. Apparently it both raises and highlights the grain, which I want.
On the other hand, I was hoping to get a dark color from tea alone, and I'm not sure that's what it's for. Does anybody know?
So linseed isn't a varnish on its own? Is it a varnish if you add artist oil like Burnt Sienna? (All I know came from reading old posts on this board and NM...somebody probably said "linseed oil" meaning their storebought oil varnish.)
Dave Chandler also talked about using walnut gunstock stain - Truoil - but not many details about when in the process he puts it on. (That's what my husband suggested in the first place...he's going to enjoy being right!) Does anybody know about Truoil, or applying universal paint tints?
Sorry for the broken ebay link. Here are some flickr pictures. The album has more pictures if you click through.
The violin this morning after two applications of citristrip...a couple more to go
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86923639@N04/8615836929/in/photostream
A before picture of the crack in the bottom
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86923639@N04/8615834459/in/photostream |
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L P Reedy
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Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 276
Location: Brevard, NC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Varnish is a mixture of oil and resin. Oil is just that--oil. And artists' oils are also not resins.
Truoil is implied to be a varnish (not a stain), but they will not tell you what the ingredients are. The last bottle I looked at listed only linseed oil and mineral spirits. It was designed for gun stocks, where just oil would be likely to be appropriate. Some people have used it on fiddles and liked it. I don't plan to try it. |
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pmccombs
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Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 87
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| dixydarling wrote: |
So linseed isn't a varnish on its own? Is it a varnish if you add artist oil like Burnt Sienna? (All I know came from reading old posts on this board and NM...somebody probably said "linseed oil" meaning their storebought oil varnish.)
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I usually order my oil varnish from International Violin. It's not too expensive and I'm confident that it's suitable for violins since I trust the company. I've also used spirit varnishes from the same source, and nitro lacquer from Stew Mac, though people usually associate that finish with guitars and cheap factory fiddles. Depends on if I want to brush, french polish, or spray my finish. Oh, I used shellac once too. It's brittle. I know some makers who like to cook their own oil varnish, and maybe linseed oil would work well in some of those recipes. I think the old Cremonese makers used oil varnish. |
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Mat Roop
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 911
Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting... the very first violin I restored was a Suzuki. It was one that had been smashed to smithereens in a vandalism incident at an elementary school. Insurance replaced it with new at a cost of $700 CAD in 1990. I kept the pieces and took it to several luthiers who all said it could not be fixed... and even if it was pieced together, it would not sound worthy of playing.
I took the challenge, bought some books & new rib material for a lower rib that was totally splintered and smashed, glued it back splinter by splinter & fitted a new rib.
The violin was originally finished in polyurethane for durability, so the only way I could match color of the new rib was to strip the entire instrument, which I did by using a stripper, re-varnished with standard Heinl German violin varnish.
I showed it to the teacher of the stringed program. She pronounced that this repaired violin sounded better than all the others in her program.
That is how I got hooked into this business.....
but the point I wanted to make was that depending on the model, some of the Suzukis can sound quite OK for students... especially if you get the polyurethane off!
Good luck!... Mat |
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Chet Bishop
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 678
Location: Forest Grove, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Mat;
Others may turn their nose up, but to me that was an honorable labor of love, and it did my heart good to read it.
Press on, mate!
Chet
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Chet Bishop
https://bluefiddles.com
https://fivestringfiddles.com |
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dixydarling
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Location: United States
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kjb
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Joined: 06 Feb 2013
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| is the purfling painted on? |
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dixydarling
Junior Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2013
Posts: 4
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| kjb wrote: | | is the purfling painted on? |
Not anymore! It got stripped off with the rest of the varnish. |
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pmccombs
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Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 87
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| dixydarling wrote: | pmccombs: International Violin -- does the 2 oz bottle do a whole violin? What ratio of turpentine to varnish do you use to dilute? It looks perfect. Thank you for the recommendation!
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I followed the varnishing DVD that I also got from International Violin: https://www.internationalviolin.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=DVD123
I have the first edition DVD which is fairly short and sweet.
I recall that 2oz is more than enough for a violin. You'll want a color varnish, which you won't use a lot of, and the clear varnish also, which you will use a lot of.
I did the gamboge ground coat, which is really beautiful. You have to dissolve gamboge powder in denatured alcohol (careful, it's highly toxic) and then brush on the dye without getting the gummy powder on there.
I think a thin layer of blond or amber shellac might also work as a ground coat, so long as you can put oil varnish over the top of it. It would probably have to be dewaxed shellac, and it would seal the wood so that you might not get the best effect with the oil. Maybe others here could say for sure. I probably wouldn't use shellac as a ground coat under oil if it were me.
As for ratios... I don't recall the exact ratio of turpentine to varnish that I used. I experimented a bit the last time I did oil. I made it fairly thin and brushed a lot of coats on. It took something like a month just to get it varnished, and another month to cure enough to rub it out. I didn't have a good UV source at the time, and it was winter and not a lot of sun. Some of the pros here could give you more direct answers on this part. |
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Mat Roop
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 911
Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| dixydarling wrote: | | kjb wrote: | | is the purfling painted on? |
Not anymore! It got stripped off with the rest of the varnish. |
Do yourself a favour... inlay some real purfling before you varnish... you'll be glad you did when you're done! ... but take your time doing it.
Good luck! ... Mat |
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